kitniyot

[cellio]

Pesach is in a few weeks, and this week at services Rabbi Freedman gave his kitniyot rant (as he described it).

Kitniyot is a class of food that isn't, strictly speaking, forbidden during Passover, but the Ashkenazi world has a long tradition of banning it as a fence. This includes foods such as rice, legumes, corn, peanuts, and their derivatives. (This is, for example, why you'll be able to find special Coke in the stores in a couple weeks. Corn syrup is kitniyot, but some bottlers produce Coke with real sugar for Passover. Even if you don't keep kosher or care about kitniyot, this is a score for taste reasons.)

Rabbi Freedman believes that kitniyot has made things so complicated that less-committed Jews just throw up their hands and don't try to do kosher-for-Pesach at all. So he is encouraging people to eat kitniyot and focus the energy they save on the real issues, the 5 grains and leavening. Eat the peanut butter and don't worry about the Coke, but really clean out the bread and cakes and beer. A worthy goal; I wonder if anyone who was there will actually follow up.

My personal practice thus far has been to not stress about kitniyot but not offer it to guests (in case they keep that stringency). And I avoid "deliberate kitniyot" -- that is, corn syrup in the Coke is ok but I probably won't actually cook up a pot of rice and beans.

Comments

Derivative of a fence

[goljerp]

I avoid "deliberate kitniyot" -- that is, corn syrup in the Coke is ok but I probably won't actually cook up a pot of rice and beans.

That's an acceptable halachic position, by the way -- because when you're eating corn syrup, you're eating a derivative of kitnyot. Since eating derivatives is a fence, and not eating kitnyot is a fence, eating derivatives of kitnyot is a fence², and as fence approaches 0, fence² approaches much more quickly, so it's OK to drop that term to make the math easier.

Of course, in today's atmosphere of chumras, I doubt you'll get anyone at the OU to admit this.

Rabbi Freedman believes that kitniyot has made things so complicated that less-committed Jews just throw up their hands and don't try to do kosher-for-Pesach at all.

Interesting. I have some friends who don't do much traditional Jewish observance. (They don't keep kosher, will work on shabbat although they don't like doing so, etc.) However, when pesach comes around they go wild and make their home as kosher for passover as possible. (Several times over the last several years I've been their non-rabbinical pesach consultant.)

Their theory is: it's only 8 days, we can survive eating only food marked "kosher for passover" and doing cleaning and preparation beforehand. (hey, what's that bit of pasta doing under my keyboard? Hm. Should I leave it for the search for chametz? Nah... Sorry for the aside.)

Having brought up a counter-example, I still think that your rabbi has an interesting point.

Corn syrup is kitniyot, but some bottlers produce Coke with real sugar for Passover. Even if you don't keep kosher or care about kitniyot, this is a score for taste reasons.

Yup. Coke with sugar is the real coke formula, from back before the dreadful "new coke" episode. After that they went to corn syrup, but true coke afficandos can tell the difference and stock up on kosher for passover coke.

Re: Derivative of a fence

[cellio]

Derivative of a fence: good point! I love it when I find out I'm accidentally doing something that's halachically acceptable. :-) Better that I do it knowingly, of course, but one can't know everything! Yeah, there's no way the Ashkenazi-dominated OU would ever go along with this, but that's ok. After all, I'm not Ashkenazi, though my rabbi presumably is. (As a convert, I am neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardi.)

Interesting. I have some friends who don't do much traditional Jewish observance. (They don't keep kosher, will work on shabbat although they don't like doing so, etc.) However, when pesach comes around they go wild and make their home as kosher for passover as possible.

I have some friends like that too. When I ask them why they don't go from that to keeping kosher year-round (building on that start), they usually say that it's too much trouble. But really, cleaning for Pesach is *way* more trouble than maintaining standard kashrut the rest of the year! Or at least it is for me, and that's *with* the cleaning person I hire to scrub out the kitchen. (I deal with all the pots/dishes/etc, but it's really nice to have someone else who cleans the oven, scrubs down the counters and shelves, etc. Last year she even bagged much of the chametz for me that had been on those shelves! Leaving it on the dining-room table would have been sufficient, so that was a pleasant surprise.)

Coke with sugar is the real coke formula, from back before the dreadful "new coke" episode. After that they went to corn syrup, but true coke afficandos can tell the difference and stock up on kosher for passover coke.

Yes, though unfortunately, it has a limited shelf life. Back when New Coke was first taking over, I went out and bought a large quantity of original coke in glass bottles and put it in the basement. (We didn't have a wine cellar; we had a Coke cellar.) But even stored under good conditions, it started to turn after a year (maybe less) and was darn near undrinkable after a couple years. Cans and plastic bottles would presumably be a lot worse.

Re: Derivative of a fence

[goljerp]

Yeah, there's no way the Ashkenazi-dominated OU would ever go along with this,

It's not so much that they're ashkenazi as that they're (as far as I can observe) interested in being as strict as possible. In this they are, unfortunately, in sync with the orthodox movement of today.

(As a convert, I am neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardi.)

Here I totally disagree with you.

You were a convert. Now you are a Jew, just like me. The fact that you converted is totally irrelevant. The factors which decide what practices you follow are the community you're living in and what your family tradition was. Also, what the family tradition of your spouse was. In the case of a convert, I would think that one would replace "family tradition of your family" with "tradition of the bet din involved in the conversion".

I strongly believe that it is wrong to differentiate between people who converted to Judiasm and those who just happened to be born to Jewish parent(s). (There's a rabbinic strand which says this too.) Of course there are differences; but I think it's not polite to say things like "since you are a convert, you didn't go to seders when you were growing up, so let me tell you X Y Z." It's much nicer to say something like "When I was growing up, I loved doing X Y Z at the seder." Ok, I'll try to stop ranting now.

cleaning for Pesach is *way* more trouble than maintaining standard kashrut the rest of the year!

Yeah, but I think my friends wouldn't want to, for example, give up shrimp and chicken parmesian all year long.

Or at least it is for me, and that's *with* the cleaning person I hire to scrub out the kitchen.

You get help scrubbing out the kitchen? How nice. :-)

Yes, though unfortunately, it has a limited shelf life
I'm not that big a fan of Coke so I didn't know about the shelf life problem... but if it does last 6 months, half a year with good coke would still be pretty good...

Re: Derivative of a fence

[cellio]

You were a convert. Now you are a Jew, just like me.

Yes, I'm just as Jewish as you are now. I have less in the way of family and community background than you do, which is part of what led me to make the distinction. But you're right that it's not a distinction that should be made very often. (And yes, I'm aware of the halacha that says one is forbidden to ask.)

So if my beit din consisted of Ashkenazi Jews, does that make me Ashkenazi? Or does it mean I should follow Ashkenazi practice? I had been assuming the latter, though I admit I'm splitting hairs.

I don't think the members of my beit din identify strongly and explicitly as one or the other. I can't even say from external features that they're of eastern-European descent, for example; I don't know where their families came from. My husband's family is Ashkenazi and he identifies most strongly as "secular Israeli", near as I can tell. My practice has been a mix of both traditions, in a way, with (AFAIK) pure Ashkenazi liturgy (but not pronunciation :-) ).

In general, I try to simply follow my rabbi's practice, or to have really studied a matter and drawn my own conclusions about what is most appropriate.

Re: Derivative of a fence

[goljerp]

Well, given the information you told me, I would call you Ashkenazi. But it's really none of my business, is it? :-)

[celebrin.livejournal.com]

I started keeping Kosher for passover about 7 or 8 years ago. I may be weird, but I never sweated the kitniyot. I didn't eat bread, pasta, and anything made with flour that wasn't Kosher for Passover. I ate corn (though not popcorn) and sometimes rice. I think I like your rabbi.

Coke though--that was always the best bonus.

[cellio]

He's a pretty good rabbi; I like him too. (This is the associate rabbi. The one I think of as "my" rabbi, the one I study with, is the senior rabbi.)

[jeannegrrl.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm half and half - my Mom was Ashkenazic and my Dad's Sephardic. But I wasn't brought up with anything. Hillel's all Ashkenazic, but would go along with me if I wanted to keep a Sephardic Passover kitchen. Though with that said, in our 5 years together, I haven't done it. I'm not 100% sure why. Maybe partly because I want others who observe the kitniyot thing to be able to eat in my home. Maybe because part of me likes to go the extra step. In anycase, this year, the first night's seder's at our home, and just to be on the "safe" side, there will definitely not be kitniyot at the table, and I'm absolutely fine with that - for the sake of our guests if nothing else. But I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that sometimes the fences get annoying (you don't get me started on mixing chicken w/ dairy!)