short takes

[cellio]

We went to a new (to me) restaurant today, Atria on Rt. 19 (Dormont? Mt. Lebanon?). There's one near where Dani works. I had a very good tuna salad -- grilled? tuna with lettuce, apples, dried cherries, walnuts, and a tasty dressing that I couldn't identify. It's one of their seasonal specials, though, not part of the regular menu. (The regular menu seemed to be short on things I can eat, but I could find something there when this salad goes away. And I've got to remember to find out once and for all if catfish is kosher; I've been told both that it is and that it isn't, and I need to remember to just ask my rabbi.)

Last night we went to Serena's 60th-birthday party. We saw Thaddeus, who I haven't seen since his wedding about a year ago. He's doing well, and is trying to make a business of glasswork. (He makes beads and jewelry and similar small items. He's good, from what I've seen. I wonder how you build a market in that area.)

I have leftover cookies. It was my turn to bake for the kiddush Saturday, and I took some to Serena's party. I wonder what the best way is to dispose of the rest without eating them myself. I've been good so far; it would be a shame for that to stop. :-) (Maybe I'll take them to work.)

It appears to be impossible to buy a matching desk (not computer desk) and hutch from a single supplier. I think I should just give up and mount the bracket-style shelves above a plain desk. Sigh.

Seth and Karen should be happily married by now. Mazel tov!

Comments

Catfish

[goljerp]

I've got to remember to find out once and for all if catfish is kosher

According to the Conservative Movement, catfish isn't kosher.

To quote from The Jewish Dietary Laws: Revised and Expanded Edition (1982, ISBN 0-8381-2105-5), pg. 92:
[a list of non-kosher fishes includes:]

Catfishes (Order Siluriformes), including Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus), Bullheads (Ictalurus species); Sea catfish (Arius felis)

I like this book. I think it's cool that they consulted an Icthyologist for the list of fishes. Its only drawback is that it's a bit small. I need to get myself a copy of Klein's book, A guide to Jewish Religious Practice, ISBN 0873340043...

Re: Catfish

[cellio]

Thanks. (And duh; I should have consulted Klein. I only ever seem to think of the question when sitting in restaurants.)

This confuses me because I think catfish have fins and scales. So are the things that look like scales not really scales, or is there an additional rule (for example, about scavengers)? And if so, is that rule Toraic, or is it a gezeirah?

Re: Catfish

[goljerp]

I always thought that Catfish didn't have scales. I decided to do a google image search, but while I wasn't able to find pictures which convinced me one way or another, I did find this page about catfish:

General Description:  From the family Ictaluridae this is one of the most popular sport fish for its fighting nature and excellent tasting flesh.  Catfish like nutrient rich water, are bottom feeders and have no scales. 

This site seems to be legitamate. Maybe you're thinking of coloration on the Catfish that looks a bit like scales? (I must admit that most fish that I eat is already de-scaled...)
I think that there is strong evolutionary pressure for fish that are bottom feeders and scavangers to loose their scales; however, the Torah only says 'must have fins and scales', not anything else. So Dolphins, which aren't even fish, are non-kosher not because they're mammals, but because they don't have scales.

I have to thank you for asking this question, because it's motivated me to do a bit of research on something which I'd heard a long time ago, but never verfified. What I'd heard was that Tuna fish, much like Swordfish, have questionable scales, but (unlike swordfish) nobody questions the kashrut of Tuna because it's so commonly eaten. Well, I turned up a FAQ on fish from the Northeast Fisheries Science Center (part of NOAA): which answers the question. To save you from linking if you don't want to,

Do tunas have scales?

Yes, all species do, but scales are so small over most of the body as to be nearly invisible. Prominent scaling appears only around the head, on the cheeks, and in a triangular area on each side of the body near the head.

So there is some truth to the story that I heard, but it sounds like there are enough scales that they're kosher. Phew. (Just as an aside, I think that Swordfish are Kosher, I just won't eat them because they're being overfished.)

Re: Catfish

[cellio]

Thanks for all of this! (Neat trick: say something provocative, and then disappear into a meeting while someone else does the research. :-) )

My catfish impressions are based entirely on old, unreliable, probably-irrelevant memories: when I was a teenager I had a tank of tropical fish, including the catfish sanitation crew, and I thought I remembered them having scales. But I wouldn't have been able to tell if those were really just colorations that looked like scales. I also don't assume that these were more than casually related to the kind of catfish people eat.

Re: Catfish

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

Aside from scales, my impression is that catfish aren't eaten also because they're bottom feeders (scavengers), and we don't eat those. (Vultures aren't kosher, either.)

Re: Catfish

[cellio]

That's the explanation I've heard, too -- but (if catfish had scales) that would be a direct contradiction of "(in the sea) all that has fins and scales you may eat", yes? Birds have been generalized to scavengers bad, others good, but that's because we're not given a rule, only a list.

Re: Catfish

[goljerp]

my impression is that catfish aren't eaten also because they're bottom feeders (scavengers), and we don't eat those.

Well, as I said, it seems that most bottom feeders loose their scales (or never develop them), due to evolutionary pressures. However, the torah text doesn't say anything about scavenging as far as fish go; it just says fins and scales.

Vultures aren't kosher, either

True, but we don't eat them 'cause they're on the "don't eat" list in the Torah. Being scavengers seems to be related to the list... but storks (who aren't scavengers) are also on it.

Theoretically, if we were to discover fish living in the seas of Europa, that had fins and scales (due to convergent evolution plus, of course, the mutations of Slaver food yeast) they would be kosher. Even if they were scavangers of other fish there. Or if someone found and then decided to domesticate a species of pig that has cloven hooves and "chews cud", it'd be kosher, even though it was pig.

[figmo.livejournal.com]

I was taught catfish wasn't kosher because they don't have scales.

shalom

[kittiekinz.livejournal.com]

hi! i've been interested in/studying judaism for a few years now. i'm interested in what you have to say, so i'm buddy-ing you! :)

-kelly

Re: shalom

[cellio]

Shalom, and welcome. You might also find the following communities interesting: jewishfriends, judaism1, and jbcs (this last is for converts).

Out of curiosity, how did you find me? Random chance? (There are about 1000 people interested in our only common interest, which is why I ask.)