Mishkan T'fillah (5)

[cellio]

This Shabbat was day 6 with Mishkan T'fillah, the new (draft) siddur. I don't have a lot of new observations this week; mostly more re-inforcement of previous observations (and one new experiment we tried).

Specifically:

• Translations need to be translations, not vague adaptations. My patience for this sort of thing is basically non-existent.
• Some of the (properly-labelled) adaptations and interpretive readings are very nice.
• I really like the layout (modulo some nits).
• They break the formatting conventions in a few places, and it's confusing.
• I'd rather that they use more pages than shrink things down to hard-to-read sizes. Some of the older members of our group are having problems with some of the small print.

Some people have complained that with this layout, the person leading the service has to be more of a leader and guide people to the right places. I think this is a good thing; I want the person leading the service to have that kind of flexibility, and anyone in that position ought to be qualified to do it. If we're releasing into the wild rabbis who can't follow a service without an extremely-blatant guide, we're doing something wrong. (Note that I don't believe the premise of that last sentence.)

Our group experimented with having the entire group read (in unison) some of the English stuff. We already did that for certain key parts (most prominently, the translation of the Shema); for the rest of the service, our custom is to go around the circle taking turns. I don't like group reading; people have to spend effort staying "in sync", so they pay less attention to the actual words. I hope we don't continue that experiment -- but we had to try it once, for the sake of completeness.

The service also ran long enough this week that we lost the rabbi's talk (which is usually about 10 minutes, not long); we had to finish in time for the rabbi to go to the bar-mitzvah service after ours. This was disappointing. I think the solution is to reduce the number (or length) of English readings that are basically translations; there are a number of places where we read the Hebrew and then read the translation, and I'd rather we didn't do that so much. (This comment pre-dates the new siddur, actually.) I said something like that to the rabbi, but we didn't really have time to discuss it. Maybe we can discuss it next time we get together to learn talmud.

I hope that I'll be able to borrow a copy of this siddur while writing up my formal evaluation. It would be handy to be able to refer to specific texts, page numbers, etc. I hope they'll welcome that level of feedback.

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Comments

[goljerp]

Some people have complained that with this layout, the person leading the service has to be more of a leader and guide people to the right places.

This touches upon the general question of "when does one call out page numbers". Of course this will be different for different siddurim, and different populations of people. Also if people are constantly coming in, then there should probably be more announcement of page numbers than otherwise (since, in my opinion, it's often much easier to figure out that you're on a new prayer and turn page(s) than to figure out which prayer is being said. There are some times when my personal method of figuring out where the leader is is very poor -- I don't always want to wait for psalm 150 to catch up with p'suke. On the other hand, maybe I should just go through the psalms at my own pace anyhow...)

[cellio]

Another factor is that in most Reform and many Conservative services, the group doesn't have much drift because most of the davening is done together, whereas with Orthodox services you're mostly davening on your own and coming together at certain points. So a person walking into an Orthodox service late needs some sort of hint (when I've been in that situation I've just bummed a page number from someone near me), but someone coming into a Reform service will get a clue pretty quickly even without explicit page numbers. (Ok, maybe I'm inappropriately assuming that if you hear "baruch she-amar" you know to turn to the beginning of p'sukei d'zimra, or whatever. I sometimes forget that I know the formal order of service better than many others.)

I'd guess that 90% of our group is there at the beginning. And the rabbi does give page numbers periodically -- not every page, of course, but often enough that people seem to do ok.

I suppose the new layout is potentially confusing, and maybe my expectations of participants are too high. You should be willing do to a little work yourself, and not demand spoon-feeding from the leader. Consider: a typical spread in this siddur has the Hebrew (and translit) on the right page, a translation below that, and two or sometimes three short readings (visibly separated) on the left page. Either page might have small notes at the bottom. Now, if you're in a minyan that never reads the commentary aloud, and you know you're on the right pair of pages (because, say, you just read the Hebrew there, or were told to turn to that page), and the leader starts reading English, then you have three (or four) candidates for where he is. You should be able to find the right spot to follow in just a few words. Or you could just listen, in which I seem to often be alone. Yeah, if you're going to go from reading Hebrew on one page straight to something in English on the next pair of pages, without the intervening Hebrew, then you'd better call out a page number. We don't tend to do that, but other congregations might. Our Hebrew density is pretty high for Reform, from what I've been told.

I don't always want to wait for psalm 150 to catch up with p'suke. On the other hand, maybe I should just go through the psalms at my own pace anyhow...

Can't you just start at the beginning and then jump to 150 when you hear it? Doing all of them is commendable but not halacha, right? So do as many as you can before the group gets to the end and you're fine, right?

[goljerp]

the leader starts reading English, then you have three (or four) candidates for where he is. You should be able to find the right spot to follow in just a few words. Or you could just listen, in which I seem to often be alone.

Hm. I see how this could be confusing, especially if for some reason one's english reading isn't that fast.

Can't you just start at the beginning and then jump to 150 when you hear it?

Sure. The thing is, usually the p'suke de zimra is done mostly in hebrew, with the leader saying out loud just the beginning/end of the psalm... except when he or she decides to sing part of one (in which case, everyone joins in). And I have this thing about wanting to conform, but also wanting to read the psalms that I like.

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

whereas with Orthodox services you're mostly davening on your own and coming together at certain points. So a person walking into an Orthodox service late needs some sort of hint (when I've been in that situation I've just bummed a page number from someone near me)

I actually find far more freedom in Orthodox services than I do in Reform (only been to two reform services) or Conservative (most of my life was spent in Conservative services). Theoretically, one does not need a hint of the page numbers in an Orthodox service if one comes late... that is to say, you start at the beginning no matter when you walked in. In contrast, I felt immense pressure at a Conservative synagogue to be with the group...everything was strictly in sync and I never felt like I had the freedom to daven at my own pace. I find so much more meaning when I'm not forced into someone else's pace, or someone else's decisions about whether a particular section will be in Hebrew or in English, etc.

I know that others disagree...I know that some feel an intense pressure to hurry and catch up, but I guess I just don't look at it that way. I've always managed to catch up and if I hadn't, I'd just stay a few minutes longer to finish up.

Recently, of course, this has been a non-issue for me, because the nearest Orthodox synagogue is two and a half miles away from here and the weather and my health have kept me from wanting to make the trek, so I daven at home unless we're spending shabbos with friends.

[cellio]

I also prefer to have some time "to myself" during a service, even if it's only the silent Amidah. (Reform doesn't do silent + chazan's Amidah, just once, usually together. So I don't get that there, though our congregation at least inserts some silent time at the end to compensate.)

Theoretically, one does not need a hint of the page numbers in an Orthodox service if one comes late... that is to say, you start at the beginning no matter when you walked in.

I thought there were certain times where you pretty much had to be with the group (e.g. kedusha), and as a result there was a priority list for what to do and what to skip if you're in a hurry, which would mean you'd need a hint of how much time you have. Or am I conflating two things? Maybe that priority list doesn't apply to shul but only if you're on your own and in a hurry for some reason (e.g. I have to leave for work in 10 minutes; what can I pull off?).

Or maybe having to be together at certain points only applies to the ten men who make up the minyan (and hence, never to either of us)?

[jonbaker.livejournal.com]

Ellisif scritta:

* Translations need to be translations, not vague adaptations. My patience for this sort of thing is basically non-existent.

Debbie tells me this is a Reform siddur. If so, that has long been standard practice in heterodox siddurim. Retain the Hebrew text with minimal changes, for tradition's sake, while softening the ideologically uncomfortable expressions, and changing the message of the text, in the English, which is what most people read anyway. Hebrew School does not usually teach enough Hebrew to understand the prayers, so most people are cast upon the English.
Bokser's Conservative siddur is an example of this - his translation is awful, consciously so. Even Birnbaum has his conscious mistranslation moments - his version of the shorter confession Ashamnu on Yom Kippur is abhominable. The original has 24 verbs expressing how we have sinned, while Birnbaum has 12 in the English.

* I'd rather that they use more pages than shrink things down to hard-to-read sizes. Some of the older members of our group are having problems with some of the small print.

My parents' summer C-nagogue has been going through this. It's mostly an older congregation, but their High Holidays rabbi (they have interns during the summer, since they can't really afford a full-time rabbi) pushed them to get new Harlow machzorim, replacing the relatively new (10-15 years old) Birnbaums. Harlow has modern English, fitting Conservative ideology (while the congregation is fairly traditional - mostly German refugees) and reduces the Hebrew to almost unreadably small print. My mother has visual problems, there are lots of other older people in the congregation who can't deal with the small type, but most of the service is in Hebrew. Mom pushed them to get a few large-type copies, but large-type copies are heavier, again a problem for older people.

there are a number of places where we read the Hebrew and then read the translation, and I'd rather we didn't do that so much.

Well, yeah. Redundancy is bad. If it includes a blessing, it can be halachically bad as well, but in a Reform shul, odds are that weighs less heavily with the leadership.

Deudone

[cellio]

Hi! Nice to hear from you.

(Just FYI, Ellisif has gone by the wayside. It was too hard for Monica to do Jewish things (like food brachot, or kiddush) at SCA events while trying to do the persona of a non-Jew. So I changed the persona.)

On the translation thing, it's long been the practice, but with an important difference. Gates of Prayer, for all that it is annoying in many ways, at least labels when they're substituting something that isn't really a translation. This new siddur goes one step rather, by having a layout that supports both translations and the more "creative" readings. (In GoP, you get one or the other -- one blob of English for each blob of Hebrew. So if you actually wanted a translation and they chose to do a different reading there, you're out of luck.)

The new siddur gives Hebrew, translation, and alternate readings. Most of the translations are, broadly, accurate. (I'm not fluent, so I'm not qualified to evaluate finer points, but the translations are pretty close to what I'm used to from other siddurim I use, mainly Silverman and Sim Shalom.) The problem is that in a few cases, they've altered the text that appears in the "translation" position on the page, without indicating that they've done so. I think this is misguided. Given that most of the translations are accurate, I want them to rectify the places where they aren't. They can change the English to be a translation, move the English so it's not in the "translation" spot, or change the Hebrew (if there's something ideological going on). I prefer the first, but would accept the other two.

I suspect that I am the most pedantic member of my minyan, perhaps save one.

reduces the Hebrew to almost unreadably small print

I don't like that. If they have to reduce something, they should reduce English first, because all the letters are the same size (broadly speaking) in the English. The first thing to get lost in the Hebrew is the vowels, and many of us need those. I also have vision problems, and there are parts of the new siddur that I can't read without a magnifying glass. (We have an eiruv, so at least a pocket magnifier doesn't pose halachic issues.)

I used a large-print machzor one year. Never again. Way too heavy!

If it includes a blessing, it can be halachically bad as well, but in a Reform shul, odds are that weighs less heavily with the leadership.

We don't repeat the blessing when we read a translation after doing the Hebrew, for just that reason.

[jonbaker.livejournal.com]

I used a large-print machzor one year. Never again. Way too heavy!

I have a whole collection of them. Artscroll I've found to be the best. I also have an Israeli one (Debbie uses their regular-size version) and a 1920's Vilna Kol-Bo, which many synagogues have hiding under the Bima. I used them for leading services, as my glasses don't focus that well close up. So I put the large-type machzor on the reading desk, and stand back a bit, and it's clear.

[cellio]

If I could read at that distance I'd probably feel differently about the large-print books. When you're sitting it can be in your lap and when you're standing it can be on the back of the pew in front of you. Unfortunately, my pretty-much-unalterable reading distance is about 8-9 inches. :-(

I imagine that a large-print machzor would get used more than a large-print regular siddur; you end up semi-memorizing the latter anyway because you use it every week, so you can make do with texts that are a bit harder to read. A machzor is once a year, though, so while it becomes less unfamiliar, it probably never achieves "familiar" in that way.

[cellio]

I just added links to my previous notes about this siddur, so if you're curious, feel free to check out my past rants on the subject. :-)

[goljerp]

If so, that has long been standard practice in heterodox siddurim.

I think that everyone does it, to a certain extent. Take my favorite example, Psalm 29, verse 9. Below we have the New JPS translation of verses 8-10:

(8)the voice of the LORD convulses the wilderness;
the LORD convulses the wilderness of Kadesh;
(9)the voice of the Lord causes hinds to calve,
and strips forests bare;[1]
while in His temple all say "Glory!"
(10)The LORD sat enthroned at the Flood;
the LORD sits enthroned, king forever.

First of all, JPS footnotes the line I marked with [1] noting that it could mean "brings ewes to early birth". (???)

The First Edition of Sim Shalom translates this bit as:

The voice of the Lord stirs the wilderness.
The voice of the Lord strips the forest bare,
while in His sanctuary all chant: Glory.
The Lord sat enthroned at the Flood;
the Lord will sit enthroned forever,

Hmm... what happened to those deer giving birth?

But this isn't just a wacky conservative thing; I don't think I've seen a literal translation in any siddur I've looked at, even ones which have linear translations of the hebrew. (I think that the Metsudah linear translation uses Rashi's drash on the line which is something along the lines of "frightens the deer")

[cellio]

(I think that the Metsudah linear translation uses Rashi's drash on the line which is something along the lines of "frightens the deer")

I'll try to remember to check when I get home tonight.

[cellio]

You're right; it's "frightens the deer". No explicit mention of Rashi in the notes on that page.

[goljerp]

No explicit mention of Rashi in the notes on that page.

Huh. Maybe they dropped the mention of Rashi in a later edition? Or perhaps I'm thinking of a different Siddur...

[cellio]

I figured you had some other source for this being Rashi, and were just using that as reference. But my copy is a recent purchase, so it could be a newer edition than whatever you've seen.