cellio | weekend so far (mostly SCA)

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weekend so far (mostly SCA)

Friday night was another dinner for the 20s/30s group. Attendance was about the same as last time (around 25), but there were some new faces, including some people who are checking out the congregation. It was a pleasant dinner. This time there was fish in addition to meat, which I appreciated. (They didn't use a kosher caterer, so last time I ate lots of pasta and salad.)

Yesterday after I got home from services we went to kingdom 12th night, about an hour north of here. We got there just as a court was finishing; I hadn't known there would be more than one. There was an artisans' exhibition, but there was very little time to look at anything before I had to go to my first meeting. (I thought the meeting was later. Oops.) This was very much the day of long meetings, and next time I end up with multiple meetings at a single one-day event I will choose one to attend and not attend all of them.

The choir performed before court (the later one, I mean). I could actually hear the tenor parts! (This has sometimes been a problem with our choir, I'm told. I'm usually in the choir, but not for Christmas music.) The altos and sopranos were down in numbers compared to the tenors and basses, and each of the upper parts had one weak singer, so balance was a little off. Aside from that, though, and one piece that really suffered from this week's rehearsal being snowed out, it sounded good. The environment wasn't really all that good for performances, unfortunately. (There was one large room with lots of background noise.)

The site for the event was a little strange. They were using a high school, so most activities took place in one large room (the cafeteria), which was plenty big enough to accommodate that. But changing rooms and meeting rooms were separate, and they were far away. (This event would have benefitted from a published map.) We had to walk quite a way to get to the changing rooms, and had to go to a different building to get to the meeting rooms, yet we walked past many suitable classrooms on the way to those destinations. Was the school unwilling to let the SCA use rooms that were actually close to the cafeteria? How odd. I felt sorry for the people who have trouble getting around. (Oh, and pretty much all of the parking was a good distance from the building, too.)

The feast was good. Starch-heavy for vegetarians (few veggies), but that's normal. I guess I should start packing raw veggies when going to events. (I am not complaining about the cook here; most feasts have this issue, for various reasons.)

A lot of people took off right after the feast. I had planned to spend that time schmoozing with people I didn't get to see during the day because of meetings, but had limited success. Some of them will be at today's baronial party, for which I'll be leaving soon.

dagonell and Cigfran got snowed in, so they didn't make it down after all. Pity.

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This was very much the day of long meetings

I suppose you don't have an unevent type of event (a day of meetings)? We've done that in Atlantia to allow people some time to enjoy themselves at 12th night without meetings! I can think of only one order that met during the day yesterday, and the only guilds that I think met were those that were making presentations.

We don't have that yet, but it sounds like something we should try. There has been occasional talk of a "peerage retreat", which doesn't cover other orders and officers and stuff, but none of the proponents have actually gotten organized about it yet.

(Our grant-level awards are barred to people with the corresponding peerage, and I was a peer before AEthelmearc went kingdom, so at least I am only affected by peerage meetings and not by the others. It was an accident that both of them ended up at 12th night.)

We don't have that yet, but it sounds like something we should try.

Here's the flyer for our Unevent (http://acorn.atlantia.sca.org/0212/unevent.htm) if you're curious about how we structure things. The Pearl, Dolphin, Yew Bow, Sea Stag, and White Scarves are our orders of merit (we have a bit of a strange structure now, the White Scarves were elevated to GoA status, while the remaining orders are all AoA level). Most people that I've spoken to like this system.

Our grant-level awards are barred to people with the corresponding peerage

That's weird to me, but apparently there was some dust-up here when they wanted to give a Pearl to a Laurel (for totally separate works than what she got Laureled in). They did give it to her, though. What happens if you have the award and then become a peer? Do you have to resign?

"What happens if you have the award and then become a peer? Do you have to resign?"

No. It doesn't work like that. The grant level awards are pretty much thought of as stepping stones to the peerage. At this point, I don't think you could give out a peerage to someone who didn't already have the grant level award. The restriction is that the grant level award can't be given to someone who's already passed beyond it, ie. a peer. In fighting and service, this makes a certain amount of sense. If we've already acknowledged you as having done superior service by giving you a pelican, why would you want acknowledgement that you've done well above average service with a grant award. However, I could see someone getting it for excellence in a second totally different art form. Of course, I've also heard the chivalry make this argument for a second totally different weapons style. I really have no strong complaints with the ban. When the principality of AEthelmearc was forming, one of the arguements being used to get people to vote in favor was that we could issue our own awards and honor those individuals who were overlooked by the kingdom. The principals of each order were all peers, not my idea of someone who's been overlooked

As Dagonell said, you get to keep the award if you already have it and get a peerage. They added these awards when we went kingdom and, I suspect, wanted to focus on "up-and-coming" folks instead of clogging the court dockets with awards to peers who had already passed that level. Or something like that. This is a guess.

In all areas it's possible for someone to earn a peerage and then do something new or different that is independently worthy of recognition. Our laws don't currently permit that recognition for the grant-level awards, and I'm starting to think that this is a bad thing now that we are a more established kingdom. We do also still have the AoA-level awards (and I really think they should have closed those when they created the new ones), but you almost never see a peer getting that low-level award, even if he's done something completely different that would otherwise rate. I don't know if there's a perception that it's redundant, or what. I think most people like to be thanked, and if it's something new then thanks might be in order.

If we've already acknowledged you as having done superior service by giving you a pelican, why would you want acknowledgement that you've done well above average service with a grant award.

I don't think service is that much more ubiquitous than arts. Suppose someone gets a pelican for being an amazing administrator -- autocrat of bunches of successful events, effective kingdom seneschal during rocky times, and so on. Now suppose time passes and he becomes very effective in fostering some other area -- an art, or youth fighting, or hound-coursing, or whatever -- and his work has an impact on the kingdom. I would give that person a Millrind (or at least a Keystone!) in that case. Especially if the new work was service specifically to the kingdom; after all, peerages can be for society-wide scope, or work in other kingdoms. But the AEthelmearc awards recognize good work done specifically for AEthelmearc.

I agree with you about too many meetings. That's why I requested that the clerks of the laurel and pelican confer in advance and see if we can eliminate non-Pennsic double scheduling. I would rather attend more events where I have one meeting and some fun time than have all the big Kingdom events turn into a conference.

The decision to skip a meeting is a hard one. We learn stuff at the meetings that can't be obtained otherwise - some people will not put such information in writing, others convey so much information with their expressions and intonations. But how can we give good advice if we don't have time to see what people do by attending the event instead of the meetings? Argh.

At this point, I don't think you could give out a peerage to someone who didn't already have the grant level award.

That seems strange to me, perhaps because it seems to me to be a modern mentality; it sounds like merit badges and similar stuff, and I've been taught that SCA awards are not like merit badges.

Of course, I've also heard the chivalry make this argument for a second totally different weapons style.

How is your fighting order set-up? Heavy only or does it include rapier, combat achery, equestrian, etc? Any seperate field would seem to be worthy of inclusion as well (the knight who picks up rapier or equestrain or whatnot).

When the principality of AEthelmearc was forming, one of the arguements being used to get people to vote in favor was that we could issue our own awards and honor those individuals who were overlooked by the kingdom.

I guess in terms of a new kingdom it makes sense, but not in terms of an established one. Especially when you consider how mobile our population is nowadays. Seems to me that it would make better sense as a custom than a rule/law, since customs can be overlooked in odd cases and have more flexibility than law.

We do also still have the AoA-level awards (and I really think they should have closed those when they created the new ones)

Why? We only have one rank of awards and I've been curious about how the two rank system (GoAs and AoAs) functions. (and if you find I'm asking too many questions, let me know, you've struck me as an approachable, encouraging questions sort of peer)

but you almost never see a peer getting that low-level award, even if he's done something completely different that would otherwise rate.

Hrm. Our baron is a peer (knight) and has done some things recently to get a King's Award of Excellence (very low level attaboy) and some times I wonder if he wasn't a peer would his work be enough for a Golden Dolphin (service order), but that it's been demoted because some is expected since he's a peer (it has to do with providing stuff for fighting in general and crown tournies in specific). That would probably be an interesting question for me to ask some of our local GDs.

Reguardless, I think that he really appreciated the KAEs (he's gotten two for two of the different aspects I believe). Isn't that really the purpose of awards, to make people feel that they are appreciated and give them that warm happy feeling?

The grant level awards are pretty much thought of as stepping stones to the peerage. At this point, I don't think you could give out a peerage to someone who didn't already have the grant level award.

Interesting; AEthelmearc has definitely diverged from the East in this regard. We've argued about this back and forth, but the general consensus seems to be that the High Merits are explicitly not steppingstones, and shouldn't be. Of course, they're AoA-level rather than GoA-level, but they're the nearest cognates we have.

We've had peers receive the High Merit version in all three tracks: it isn't common, but it certainly happens. I'm a typical example on the arts side, having gotten my Manche for gaming long after getting the Laurel for dance. It's pretty common for Pelicans to get Crescents (especially immigrants who do lots of service for the Kingdom). Don't know how often it happens in the fighting track, but it's so phenomenally difficult to get a belt these days that the sample size is small...

King's Award of Excellence (very low level attaboy)

Amusing. I'll have to keep this in mind, since the East has a King's Order of Excellence with a very different meaning. (Basically, it's for doing persona really well. I don't entirely approve of the existence of the award -- I think we'd be better-off with fewer, less-specific award types -- but it does highlight the folks who play the part very well.) Your KaE sounds more like our Queen's Honor of Distinction: a random thingy that the Queen can give out entirely at whim, because she thinks you're a neat person.

Isn't that really the purpose of awards, to make people feel that they are appreciated and give them that warm happy feeling?

That's one purpose, anyway. There are others -- in particular, the awards we give say a lot about our priorities as a small-s society, and there are strong feedback loops between the awards given and what people do.

But your point is basically correct: occasional recognition is a Good Thing, even for the muckety-mucks. Unnecessary limitations on who can receive honors tend to be ill-advised...

I don't think I agree with the assessment that in AEthelmearc you pretty much have to get the grant-level award first. I haven't done the OP analysis, though, and

dagonell is a herald and thus more exposed to these things, so maybe I'm wrong.

I know that the phrase "he doesn't have his [whatever] yet; let's get him that first" has not come up in the peerage discussions I've been involved in. Occasionally someone will say "this person isn't ready, but hey, he doesn't have a [whatever] yet so maybe we should recommend him for that in the meantime" -- but that's not the same thing. And sometimes someone is nominated to both the peerage order and the grant order, and the royalty (who are in a position to see that) may decide to act on the grant even knowing that they or their successors might give the peerage. But again, that is not the same thing (nor is it at all consistent).

Things have also changed as the kingdom has aged. In the beginning, there was a perception that we had some overdue peerages, and we certainly weren't going to wait to climb an award ladder to give them. Now the grant-level awards have existed for a few years and people are tending to get them at about the right times, so people who end up on peerage polling lists now stand a better chance of already having those awards than those who became peers a few years ago.

How is your fighting order set-up? Heavy only or does it include rapier, combat achery, equestrian, etc?

At the AoA-level, we have the Golden Alce, a single martial award that can be given for fighting, archery, scouting, equestrian, thrown weapons, unit tactics, or whatever -- or a combination. It nicely parallels the arts and service awards, which are not sub-divided by field either.

At the grant level, in order to be part of the White Scarf treaty we apparently had to give fencing its own award; it couldn't be part of a general martial award. Some of us argued for having just two martial awards, fencing and everything else, but that idea was defeated. We have five such awards now, all grant-level, and I think this is overkill. In no other area do we have multiple parallel awards. And we have broken parity in another way: you can get a grant-level award for competence in several arts or several areas of service, even if no one of them is enough to get the award on its own, but if you are a competent fighter and a competent fencer and a competent archer but not excellent at any of them, well, no award for you. It seems silly to me.

I'm not one of the merit-badge-focused people, but I see things like this cause way too much angst for the benefit gained among some of the populace, and I really wish we weren't set up this way.

Why? We only have one rank of awards and I've been curious about how the two rank system (GoAs and AoAs) functions.

It doesn't function very well here, especially when you try to redefine things in the middle.

Ok, it's like this. Once upon a time we were a principality and we had the AoA-level awards. Everyone, and I mean everyone, understood that the level of skill necessary to earn (say) a Sycamore was much lower than that required to earn a Manche, the kingdom-level award in the same area (arts, in this case). So people from the principality of AEthelmearc had an extra award that they might get on the way to a Manche, and people from the rest of the East didn't, but the standards were so different that this didn't really cause any confusion.

Then, AEthelmearc went kingdom. The heralds who were running the place at the time, in some moment of one-upsmanship or whatever, decided that the AoA-level awards ranked higher in precedence than the Eastern awards (which were also technically AoA-level, but with higher standards). So Sycamores now ranked higher than Manches on paper, which had nothing to do with reality.

So, the analysts among us noted that one of two things would happen: the standards for the award would rise to meet the new position, or a new layer of awards would be added in order to keep the existing awards at a lower level. Some of us really didn't want to see a new layer right away, and felt that the standards should rise a bit now that we were a kingdom, so we argued for closing the principality orders and opening new ones. That effort failed, though, and it really only could have been done at the time we went kingdom. And the prediction played out: the first king and queen created grant-level awards to parallel the AoA-level awards we already had, and made them polling orders (like the Eastern orders had been) to distinguish them. So for all practical purposes, a Fleur (grant-level) is now more-or-less equivalent to an Eastern Manche, except on paper.

My fear is that someday we will end up like Trimaris, with 50-something awards, most highly-specialized, few understood by most people. I would rather have fewer general awards than lots of specific ones. Heck, some might lend themselves to being given multiple times, which would be fine. But we don't need a special award for heraldry or teaching dance or thrown weapons or autocratting or whatever...

Our fighting orders are set up strangely, though not as strangely as yours seem to be ::grin::. The Sea Stag is our fighting Order of Merit, but it emphasises teaching. But then it didn't. But then it did (there's some difference of opinion, and whether it did or not depended upon who had been on the throne most recently). But the Sea Stag was for anything; heavy, rapier, equestrian, and archers have all been made stags (we don't have scouts and thrown weapons is still relatively new). And the rapier fighters had their own seperate order for the white scarf treaty.

Because of the Sea Stag controversy, they created the Order/company (some arguement about which) of St. Aiden (which doesn't allow peers of any flavor and if you become a peer you must resign, which is why I asked that about your GoA orders). St. Aiden is heavy only (I think). And they made the Kraken an AoA order (equal with the other orders of merit). I don't quite understand the role that the Kraken will fill, it's new at this level.

So we aren't specializing in the same way that your kingdom is, but doing something else entirely, which I don't really understand. Huh, I hadn't realized that we were so messed up until now.

Richard pointed out that sometimes an award is a part of a monarch's pet project (I think that equestrian is worthy of recognition, let's give them a GoA order). It does seem strange that the arts and service community is satisfied with one order, but that the fighting community isn't.

Interesting; AEthelmearc has definitely diverged from the East in this regard. We've argued about this back and forth, but the general consensus seems to be that the High Merits are explicitly not steppingstones, and shouldn't be.

Atlantia split off earlier than AEthelmearc, but we seem to echo East in this regard (at least, from what I've been told, I'm not part of any polling orders, nor am I ready yet!).

Basically, it's for doing persona really well.

I didn't know that another kingdom had an award like this. Ansteorra has their Lions, which is a very highly respected order there. For the most part I agree with you about preferring fewer, more general awards; but I've always liked this particular specialization. Perhaps it's because so few people around here really have good personas (myself included), and it doesn't really fit into any of the other 'typical' orders very well.

Your KaE sounds more like our Queen's Honor of Distinction: a random thingy that the Queen can give out entirely at whim, because she thinks you're a neat person.

Sounds pretty similar. Our Queen's award is the Queen's Award of Courtesy, given to those who have been particularly nice and helpful and whatnot (courteous). I think that is a bit overkill since we also have the Undine, which is personal service to the Queen. Too often they seem to overlap (since those who offer service are often very courteous about it).

Basically, it's for doing persona really well.
I didn't know that another kingdom had an award like this. Ansteorra has their Lions, which is a very highly respected order there.

My impression has always been that the Lion is a bit different. Where the KoE is specifically about being in-persona -- doing medieval/renaissance really deeply -- I've been told that the Lion is more about embodying the spirit of the Kingdom. Essentially the KoE is about period, whereas the Lion is about the SCA. (My impression may be incorrect, but that's the way I understand it.)

Oddly, despite the fact that I dislike special-purpose awards, and especially dislike awards with limits on how many people can get them, I'm rather enamored of the Lion. The very fact that it can only be given once per reign gives it enormous prestige, despite carrying no technical rank or precedence. The nearest Eastern equivalent is the Augmentation of Arms -- that isn't written into law anywhere, and can technically be given out at whim, but everyone understands that it's intended to be used for living legends.

Our Queen's award is the Queen's Award of Courtesy, given to those who have been particularly nice and helpful and whatnot (courteous). I think that is a bit overkill since we also have the Undine, which is personal service to the Queen.

For us it's called the Queen's Order of Courtesy, but I suspect it's very similar; the personal-service award is the Queen's Cypher. However, they're quite clearly different here. The QoC is specifically about personal bearing, and while there is some correlation with those hanging around the Queen, it isn't much stronger than many other things. (Not nearly as strong as with Court Baronies, which are very frequently given to those who give assistance to the Crown.

Richard pointed out that sometimes an award is a part of a monarch's pet project

Frequently. These make me nuts, because they contribute very heavily to the "merit badge" mentality. The problem is that few Monarchs have any sense of perspective: they all think, "hey, it's just *one* award I'm creating -- what's the big deal?". Too few grasp the fact that, if even a small fraction of the Royals do that, you wind up stacking up little special-purpose awards pretty damned fast...

Where the KoE is specifically about being in-persona -- doing medieval/renaissance really deeply -- I've been told that the Lion is more about embodying the spirit of the Kingdom.

Hrmm. From their award web page (http://www.ansteorra.org/regnum/herald/tressure/awards1.html):
Awarded for Exceptional High persona play, these are the ones who create the Dream.
As to how it's used, that I don't know, I was only there for a few months and never saw one given.

The nearest Eastern equivalent is the Augmentation of Arms

That's odd, our augmentations can be given out for anything. I think there's an order that has an augmentation, a group of people who did something really cool at Pennsic, and various other 'whims'. Our 'special' award is the 'Order of the Non Pareil', which always says 'snowcaps!' to me, but I didn't make it up. I don't know that I'd apply 'living legend' status to all of the members of the order, either (that's a lot to live up to!).

Not nearly as strong as with Court Baronies, which are very frequently given to those who give assistance to the Crown.

I see court baronies a lot given to those who give assistance to the Crown, but they are also often given in Atlantia as 'dead end' awards. You've done good in lots of areas for years, but for some reason or another we just can't make you a peer. I've found it a bit odd.

Awarded for Exceptional High persona play, these are the ones who create the Dream.

Interesting. Okay, I guess my information was incorrect.

That's odd, our augmentations can be given out for anything.

Technically, that's true here. But precedent says that it is only given for extraordinary and extremely long service to the Kingdom, far beyond Peerage level. I think the majority of the recipients have been Royal Peers who also served as Kingdom officers for many years. One of my favorites is Master Feral "Kingmaker" von Halstern, who hasn't yet managed to win the Crown himself, but whose dynasty accounts for a whole bunch of reigns in the past couple of decades. So basically it's generally for achievement that folks consider remarkable.

(More precisely, it's usually given to the people who have every official award they're going to get, but who everyone agrees have gone far enough beyond the pale that they really ought to get something else. So it's essentially the "this one goes to 11!" award.)

I see court baronies a lot given to those who give assistance to the Crown, but they are also often given in Atlantia as 'dead end' awards. You've done good in lots of areas for years, but for some reason or another we just can't make you a peer. I've found it a bit odd.

That happens a fair amount here as well. Basically, Court Baronies are the highest award that the Crown can really give out at whim -- where there is neither Law nor Custom restricting who they can give it to. So it's sometimes used for cases where they really want to give something extra-spiffy, but can't give what they'd really like to.

I tend to treat CBs on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they're really meaningful and important; sometimes they're just tokens. Depends a lot on both the recipient and the Royals who gave i

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weekend so far (mostly SCA)

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Too many meetings

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