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answers, part 3
Do you have any big regrets?
Yes.
Oh, that's probably not the question you really wanted to ask. Ok, I can elaborate. :-)
The only time that I initiated a breakup of a romantic relationship, it played out badly and I feel that this was largely my fault. I'm not certain what specifically I could have done better, but I'm sure I could have handled it better in some way. The other person got hurt pretty badly (though he tried not to let it show), which was certainly no one's intent, and the friendship has never been the same. (It wasn't a hostile breakup; it was more of a "this isn't going to work" situation.)
Somehow you are on my read list.... do you know how you got there because I don't remember...
I don't know. As far as I know we don't know each other in real life, and we don't appear to have friends in common right now. Maybe we did and you saw me on a "friends of friends" list, or maybe you surfed randomly or via similar interests?
How far is your shul from where you are and how long does it take you to walk there?
Approximately 1 mile (less as the mole digs, but that's not an accurate measure of surface distance -- it just means don't trust maps in Pittsburgh). It takes me about 20 minutes to walk there on average. I can rush it in 15 minutes or so, but I rarely feel the need to rush on Shabbat.
Would you mind telling your conversion story (the long version)?
I don't mind. Let me try to figure out the best way to bridge the gap between the short summary and the longer version that, among things, manifested in approximately 150 pages of journal at the time. This may take a few days.
Actually, here's an oddball question (which is not, itself, an answer to your question, but more of a tangent): I could post that journal over a similar span of time in a different LJ ("reruns"?). It would take about a year altogether. (I think there's value in not just reading it all at once. I can't just post the entire thing as-is anyway, as I have to edit out people's real names and stuff like that.) Would this be at all interesting to anyone? Don't worry; I'm not using this as a way to blow off your question.
I'll also entertain more-specific questions by email, if that helps any. The hardest thing about trying to tell a big story is figuring out the parts that would be seen as interesting and significant to others.
Thanks....
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I would be interested in your longer story... it might get me to write my own "longer history".
Spydie
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Lately though, especially after my breakdown, I have an almost desperate need for something. I have even considered making the drive to another city (at least an hour away in either direction) for an alternative feeling place.
I really need that sense of belonging again.
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I'm fortunate to live in a city with a variety of synagogue options, including about a dozen within reasonable walking distance of my house. (Granted, location with respect to synagogues was a factor in choosing the house.)
Good luck!
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I converted to being a Jehovah's Witness for 2 years prior to entering university. It is also a long story on how it started and ended. I think the exposure to a fundamentalist/cultish church was a good thing for me. It definitely taught me a lot about human behaviour.
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I was Roman Catholic. I can't really say that I was born Catholic since my dad (born Muslim and now against organized religion) was opposed to my baptism. My mom ended up getting me baptized when I was 3 or so - after the separation. Apparently I said no when the priest asked if I wanted to be part of the church...
And what caused you to abandon it? (Just ignore me if I'm being too nosy. I tend to be curious about the paths people take to/from religion.)
Actually you're not being nosy. This is probably one of the most interesting stories about me and too few people are interested in it!
I will give you a short version here. I really should explore the topic further in my own journal which may make it more interesting.
My mother became pretty isolated when upon remarrying, my step-father got transferred to Ontario (and thus us too!). She was not fluent in English and well now I also know that she was suffering from depression which made her paranoid about leaving the house (I face the same problems now).
Jehovah's Witnessed called at our house and she thought she had dismissed them appropriately by saying that she didn't speak English. He he, a french speaking JW soon appeared and that started a Bible study which became a friendship - my mom was always into theological topics and I remember sitting in some pretty in-depth discussions. That went on for a couple of years and I befriended some of that JW lady's kids.
I never had too many friends in high school. I had a French accent, I was smart, I had horrible clothing that I had to wear for days on end. Let's just say that I was not popular. I also had the problem that my mom was over-protective and didn't let me visit the few friends I had very often. Anyhow, my mom was approving of my new JW friends and let me spend time with them. I think that she thought it was harmless at the time. The indoctrination was strong - their materials and what seemed to be a scientific approach to the Bible appealed to me (what did I know, I was 14) or maybe it was peer pressure. I started with a Bible study, then started going to meetings, going door-to-door and finally I was on a path to baptism. I learned a great deal about other religions in the attempts to convert them. I studied diligently their version of the Bible too. I made some amazingly wholesome friends. More in the next comment I think I am getting close to the limit!
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My mom couldn't disapprove of this since she encouraged me in the first place. It was a pretty safe way for a teenager to rebel. All parties are chaperoned and are attended by good-standing members of the congregation. My grandparents were very upset and thought I was losing my place in heaven (they were quite happy when I left/got kicked out) They were so proud when I was an altar-girl in middle school!
Anyhow, I could talk on and on about how innocent and happy my JW years were for me. It taught me a lot about human kindness and how some people will totally reshape their lives for their faith (in my case it meant no more Christmas and birthdays, no more blood products - to this day no blood transfusions for me, got rid of all my catholic paraphernalia and censoring my music and books to get rid of objectionable material) It also taught me about shunning and calling anything that doesn't agree with the JW doctrine an influence of Satan.
Funny thing that it was a boy that made me abandon my chance for eternal life. You see right before I joined the JW, I befriended a boy in my English class. He was a bit nerdy, didn't dress well, had horrible hair (sorry Ev!) and we really enjoyed each other's company. We went to a play and held pinkies, I visited him when he worked in the library.. pretty innocent stuff. Then I joined the JW and had to ignore that part of me since he was an influence of Satan.
Ev didn't give up on me. He thoroughly researched the organization and tried to talk sense into me. He started studying the Bible and tried to reason with me. That didn't work too well. However, I started caring more about him. Then, when I was in grade 12, it clicked. I was also becoming a bit more skeptical since the JW's were not happy with my choice of going to university (I should become a missionary and not go to a place of Satan's influence). Anyhow, I started distancing myself and well started hanging out with Ev more to fill in the void. I did this in cycles and I broke up with the poor guy something like 10 times until the elders of the congregation made good on their warnings about my unsuitable associations and told me not to come back until I was free of Satan's influence.
Let's just say that I didn't go back. I lost my entire social network at once and instead of being a shun-er I became a shun-ee. It was terrible but I am glad that it happened.
I am glad that I went to university and Ev is still one of my lifelong friends. He got married last year and I guess I should tell him about Lj now that I mention him. He probably could elaborate more on my leaving the JW's and how skewed my thinking was at the time (which the Elizabeth Smart story reminded me of).
I really did believe that I had lost all chances of eternal life. It's been years since I have talked seriously about this. My life-partner knows the even shorter story but since it's really a lot of Ev/Mona history I think he doesn't want to impose on it.
I did feel a huge void since I basically stopped being religious for a couple of years. I still went to Roman Catholic high masses when family obligation demanded it but it held no special meaning.
My grandfather dying (he was very very religious), a very special Good Friday service (where it all clicked), joining a Catholic choir in Memphis - all brought me back to Catholicism in the years since. I still don't really attend mass on a regular basis but when I do it means something to me now. I like the chance to feel close to my grandfather (used to go to mass daily with him when I was small), to pray and meditate.
I disagree with a lot of the Church' stances but since my experiences with fundamentalism, I am a little scared to search for a different faith. I am happy where I am now even though I feel a bit out of sorts sometimes. It's hard to explain. This whole path to where I am now in regard to my fiath is a bit hard to grasp sometimes too!
Anyhow, I hope this answers your question and is somewhat coherent. I think I will like to link to these comments now instead of posting an entry. It is getting late and I need to pack for an SCA event!
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What you've described sounds similar to some organizations that have been labelled cults.
Congratulations on finding a place that works for you. If you're happy there, why look elsewhere?
(By the way, if Ev wants an LJ code, let me know. I've got plenty.)
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No holidays at all so no loot at all. Although JW's do have one holiday that coincides with the Jewish passover and they do celebrate wedding anniversaries. I can't remember offhand what they called their one holiday but it involved passing around unleavened bread of which only one the 144000 chosen ones that get into heaven could eat. I could research this more if you are interested. It's sort of a weird holiday to start with.
What you've described sounds similar to some organizations that have been labelled cults.
Yes, as I age away from that part of my life, I realize that more and more. I am somewhat embarrassed to have fallen for that since I pride myself on my intellectual abilities. It amazes me what we deem acceptable behaviour - from opening your mouth when going to the dentist and letting someone poke around in there to yearly well-woman exams. I call it the sheep syndrome. Although in my defense, the JW way of thinking was eased onto me and well it's very easy to want to conform when one is a teenager.
(By the way, if Ev wants an LJ code, let me know. I've got plenty.)
Thanks, I will keep that in mind. That is very generous of you and I do appreciate it. I am thinking of being a paying member now that I am funded.
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Wow. What is their rationale for this? I mean, why wouldn't Christians want to celebrate Christmas and Easter, at least? (I'm assuming they're Christians. The ones who've come to my door have certainly talked about Jesus and waved the "new testament" around, at least.)
I am somewhat embarrassed to have fallen for that since I pride myself on my intellectual abilities.
You were 14. And, as you said, you were introduced to it gradually. There's no shame in that. When you realized you disagreed you left; a lot of people wouldn't have.
Codes: I'm a permanent member; I can generate 5 per month. That's more than I can use, so I have no objection to giving them away to anyone who asks.
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"Christmas and Easter: Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions. The same is true of Easter customs, such as the use of eggs and rabbits. The early Christians did not celebrate Christmas or Easter, nor do true Christians today."
Here is another link on their view of Christmas customs CHRISTMAS CUSTOMS Are They Christian?
So yes, JW's are Christians, but true Christians. Grins. The research I have done today has inspired me for yet another journal entry on this topic.
On the other topic, I tend to put off personal e-mails (so Ev does not know yet about my LJ) but I will definitely keep your generous offer of codes in mind. Thanks again.
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You know, you've got to admire them for having the strength of their convictions to actually rebel against the pagan associations in some Christian holidays. I mean, pretty much everyone agrees that Jesus wasn't born in December and most of the trappings came from the pagans they're supposed to oppose, but the JWs are the first I've heard of who've done something about it.
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The initial attraction to JW doctrine (doctrine - I was looking for that word all day!) is that it makes sense and comes from what one would deem a moral high ground. I don't want to get myself into a definition of moral high grounds here -I am afraid I would dig myself into low ground doing that!
It all seems to make sense but then they do still have some pagan customs such as wedding bands, honeymoons etc. They do abide by most of the trappings of the wedding industry which in my opinion detracts from the purpose of the event. Anyhow, I must not get into a discussion of weddings here.. we still haven't announced in real life our decision to do it next year.
Anyhow, I do admire them for taking the high ground in a lot of their beliefs. It is just too bad that their religious organization does not let them freely associate and study the Bible independently of the JW-published books (they even have their own Bible translation which has been highly criticized by scholars). That in my mind, makes them suspect.
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