Hebrew by osmosis

[cellio]

I've had poor results trying to learn Hebrew formally, and some ok results just picking things up by osmosis, so it's time to ask for some pointers from my Hebrew-literate friends. (Ok, my timing probably stinks what with Pesach and all. If I don't get any replies, I'll try this again in a week. But I'm thinking of it now.)

I think it's time for me to read.

I should probably aim for a mix of children's books (real young children) and books that are a little less, err, intellectually lame. I mean, most adults will tire pretty quickly of "see Dick run", and I'm no exception. I'm wondering if books with simpler vocabulary that are already familiar to me would be reasonable candidates -- things like The Little Prince or some of Aesop's fables or the like. I read that stuff in English as a young child (definitely fables before kindergarten), so it should be possible.

Anything I try to read has to have full nikud (vowels), at least for now. Larger print is a plus. And I'd like to be able to buy it by mail, to avoid funny looks in Pinsker's (or, worse yet, them assuming I have children).

Does anyone have any suggestions?

And no, I'm not interested in reading Harry Potter in Hebrew. Didn't read it in English; don't want to read it in another language. And anyway, it doesn't have nikud. :-)

Comments

[hobbitblue.livejournal.com]

I don't speak hebrew (was learning and even teaching biblical hebrew for a while but it was when I first got sick and I couldn't concentrate enough), but I've studied language a lot.
First thing that springs to mind is, online bookstores in Israel? Should have children's books available. Also, any books with english on one page and the hebrew text on the other so you can read them at the same time? Beware of the very basic children's books with just a few words and pictures, as they really don't do the trick for adults (found that out with some Welsh ones I tried). Comic books maybe?
Personally, I'd at least check out the books in a real bookshop if possible to assess the level, even if you then go on to get them online - you could always be buying them for a friends kids though, being a generous auntie or something.

[tangerinpenguin.livejournal.com]

You may also want to try newspapers; they'll have a more adult vocabulary and will probably give you more interesting "unfamiliar" words several times per article, but their writing is usually pretty simple, which means you're generally looking at unfamiliar words or idioms in text you can otherwise mostly follow rather than dense, completely foreign prose (like, say, a technical paper or scholarly essay in a field that doesn't borrow heavily from English.)

[peacheater77.livejournal.com]

Shalom Monica,

I know that I have not commented in your journal in a while but this topic piqued my interest and so I've decided to reply to the best of my abilities. When I came to the States from Bulgaria, I was six years old at the time, I did not know a lick of English except the words "Yes, no, and Ninja" and that was about it.

One of the ways that I quickly learned English, besides living here and going to school, was to get a copy of a children's book that had a cassette tape attached in which one could follow along the text with what was said on the tape. Of course, that can work if you know the language fairly well but otherwise, I'm sure it can backfire.

I would also like to suggest that you start simple and work to larger things (I know that I might be restating the obvious here, but it's true). Start with the newspapers or something out of Torah (can you read Torah Hebrew fairly well?) and keep a dictionary close by. If there is one word that you do not understand then check it in the dictionary.

I hope that these suggestions are helpful.

Alex

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter is actually pretty darned advanced Hebrew, from what I understand. So I wouldn't recommend that even if you hadn't already ruled that out.

I have some Dr. Seuss books in Hebrew, but they are less than intuitive, since Dr. Seuss made up a lot of words. On the other hand, you know that you can get the English versions of those books to compare notes, which is sometimes useful.

http://www.eichlers.com has some children's books in Hebrew, though I can't make any specific suggestions right now as it's 2am and I'm a bit out of it. Plus, as you may know, MY Hebrew is atrocious.

[cellio]

Also, any books with english on one page and the hebrew text on the other so you can read them at the same time?

Very good idea. That's actually how I generally follow Torah readings; I listen to the Hebrew, follow in the English, and glance across to the Hebrew as much as possible.

Comic books sound like fun, too!

[goljerp]

... except newspapers don't have vowels. At least, I think that most Israeli newspapers don't. And that makes reading much harder.

[zare-k.livejournal.com]

Good idea... I find newspapers helpful for language learning also. They can provide a moderate challenge, and for some reason I find news and current events more engaging as a topic than literature at a similar reading level.

[cellio]

I'd love to be able to attempt newspapers. I haven't seen one that prints the vowels yet, unfortunately. I'm told that most things aimed at adults don't, because you're assumed to have enough vocabulary to work it out from context. And adding vowels doubles the typesetting effort (= cost).

Hebrew is built around consonants. Each word can ultimately be boiled down to its root ("shoreish"), which is usually three letters. Changes in vowels convey changes in tense, subject, verb binyan (e.g. the difference between "tell" and "command"), and so on. Prefixes and suffixes serve related grammatical roles; sometimes they're also short words tacked on rather than standing alone. ("And" never stands alone, for instance; it's tacked onto the next word. That's what all those "v'something" words are -- "and something".)

Fluent people can read without the vowels because they have enough context to eliminate unlikely possibilities, and probably also because all those prefixes and suffixes help out. Without that context, though, I really need the vowels to stand a chance of parsing it.

I guess writing with vowels is sort of like spelling out every single abbreviation and shorthand would be in English. You, as s fluent reader, understand "conf call 3:00 w/CTO SCA Inc", for example. (I know; not a great example because of proper names. It was the best I could come up with quickly.)

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

Heh... I've read Asterix in French and Latin (loses something in English). Wonder if they have it in Hebrew?

[cellio]

I didn't do a very good job with explaining the stuff about roots. These guys do a better job while keeping it short.

[cellio]

Thanks for the suggestions!

"Yes, no, and ninja"? Eek. Was that "ninja" as in "guys in black pajamas doing unlikely acrobatics", or as in "turtles"? :-)

[cellio]

I would expect Dr. Seuss to be hard to translate. Not because of the made-up words, but because getting the word play, meter, rhyme, and meaning to all line up has got to be a real bear.

You just gave me an idea. I should ask our associate rabbi, who runs the school, what they use to teach the kids Hebrew, and if I can borrow any of the books over the summer when school's not in session anyway. (That's assuming they try to teach the language and not just pronunciation and a few key words, and that might be the downfall of this plan. I don't know the answer, so I'll have to ask.)

[tangerinpenguin.livejournal.com]

Ah, good point. I should have expected that (if nothing else, newspapers are going to go with the cheapest-to-typeset orthography they can), but it didn't occur to me (my own experience is with Portuguese.)

[peacheater77.livejournal.com]

Ninja as in turtles.

You're welcome for the suggestions.

Alex

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

I have The Giving Tree, The Lorax, and Where the Wild Things Are. Those three all have vowel marks (except on the cover of Giving Tree, sure why).

Not that I can read them yet, either. But I do know what nikud look like. :)

Can I help?

[lefkowitzga.livejournal.com]

Let me contact my old Hebrew school - I was thinking of going for a refresher anyway.

The elementary hebrew text we used was very good for learning vocabulary and grammar. If I can get a copy, it might be a good basis to start you on the kid's books. They might also have some simple language texts that aren't lame intellectually.

BTW, I had training in teaching hebrew and taught hebrew school when I was in college. We could set something up if you're interested.

[figmo.livejournal.com]

That was what I was going to suggest.

The reading will be incredibly boring (I know this firsthand; that's how I learned Hebrew), but it's a start.

Beyond that you may want to check any local colleges that teach Hebrew to see what they use for textbooks and for supplemental reading material.

Re: Can I help?

[cellio]

You are way more advanced than I am, so I'd probably bore you with my efforts, but if you're up for it anyway I'd welcome the help. But I'm really trying to focus on the written language, so if you're looking for a conversation partner that probably wouldn't work out. (Conversation can come later, but I want to pass through the stage where you see the words.)

Hmm. If you're looking to practice generation (I'm not there yet), I'd be willing to attempt to read whatever you attempt to write. :-)

[cellio]

Harry Potter is actually pretty darned advanced Hebrew, from what I understand. So I wouldn't recommend that even if you hadn't already ruled that out.

Besides, I flunked the test. Dani suggested Harry Potter, I said no, and he suggested that I'd probably recognize words like mem-gimel-lamed anyway, and I had to ask. :-)

("Muggle".)

Re:

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

I refused to read Harry Potter for a long time. Now I'm addicted. But if you haven't read them in English, they might be a bit tricky in Hebrew. So it's still not a suggestion...

[cellio]

I'm interested enough in HP to be willing to spend 3 hours per movie, but not 8-20 hours per book. (I've actually lost track of page counts, though I know the last one was huge. But I'm not intentionally exaggerating; I'm a slow reader. Paperback fiction ranges from 30-60 pages per hour depending on size/density of type.)

Re:

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

I can understand that. I definitely prefer the books to the movies...but the nice thing about the movies is that you can enjoy them without reading the books first.

Nikud

[marnen.livejournal.com]

One of the things I like about Rosén's textbook (which I mentioned in an earlier comment) it that it starts off without nikud. It's a little odd at first, but the advantage is that it presents from the first the language as it's actually written, which means that one quickly gets used to dealing without vowel signs -- and it's far easier than you'd think. Rosén also spends time explaining what cues to look for to resolve the vowels in ambiguous cases.

BTW, I have a copy (with nikud, I think -- never tried to actually read it) of Pu ha-Dov. Amusing concept, in some ways.

Re: Nikud

[cellio]

Thanks for the reminder about Rosen. Sounds like it's worth looking for, especially for those hints. :-)

I've heard of Winnie the Pooh in a bunch of different languages, so I guess Hebrew shouldn't really surprise me. I'm told the Latin one is amusing.

Re: Nikud

[marnen.livejournal.com]

I've got the Latin one too (Winnie ille Pu). I have a friend who wants me to translate it into Klingon....

[magid.livejournal.com]

If you're interested, I looked around my house and found some little booklet-y things that are in Ivrit kalah (easy Hebrew), with nikud, on a couple of different topics, such as sayings from the sages, and writings of the children in Theresienstadt (sp?) (a la I Never Saw Another Butterfly). There are some pages with my translations of individual words written in in pencil, and there are some translations of phrases at the bottom of some pages, but they're in reasonably good condition, if you'd like them. If you do, let me know where to send them...

[cellio]

Ooh, thank you!! I'll send you email.

[magid.livejournal.com]

Sent this afternoon :-)