a seasonal request

[cellio]

We are now in the Ten Days of Repentance, the period of time between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur when we go into overdrive to try to repair any damaged relationships we have with each other.

If there is anything which I did over the past year which hurt or upset you, please let me know. If you want to discuss it publically, please leave a comment below; if you'd like to discuss it privately, send me email (address is in my profile).

I will do my best to make amends and make right anything which I have done wrong.

I don't promise that I can. But I do promise that I will try.

[The above was largely swiped from goljerp, who got it here. I was already planning to write something similar tonight but I decided to just adapt this, as the original poster invited people to do so.]

Comments

Safe at home

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

Nope, you didn't succeed in hurting or upsetting me. You'll have to try harder, or, failing that, come back to Harold's Purim seudah. :)

Re: Safe at home

[cellio]

Purim is on a Sunday this year, so Harold's is a possibility. Alternatively, however, I might try to host one myself to save 9 hours of driving, assuming Dani is ok with such a thing happening in a house he's trying to live in. :-) (We must confer.)

Re: Safe at home

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

I'm so freakin' happy that Harold has moved. I can now walk (okay, stumble) back from his place if I need to. :)

Your house would be a wonderful place to have one in, assuming you can negotiate successfully. Of course, the trip is worth the drive...shame our fair cities aren't closer together.

[zare-k.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting idea. Just out of curiosity: If someone does tell you directly that you've offended someone and you honorably set out to make amends, are they required (or at least karmically obligated) to give you the chance to set things right? I.e., is it acceptable for them to say something like "I want you to know that it really made me angry when you did X last year, and there is nothing you can do to repair this?"

Re: Safe at home

[cellio]

I'm so freakin' happy that Harold has moved. I can now walk (okay, stumble) back from his place if I need to. :)

Woo hoo! One of the challenges of attending Harold's wondeful seudah that one year was that I had to arrange for a driver who was interested in going to a Purim seudah but willing to be mostly sober. That's such an unfair request! But it was such fun, and I don't know if I could stimulate a similarly festive gathering myself. We'll see.

Re: Safe at home

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

Best of luck.

I liked this sentiment: may the best of last year be the worst of next year!

[cellio]

This is an interesting idea. Just out of curiosity: If someone does tell you directly that you've offended someone and you honorably set out to make amends, are they required (or at least karmically obligated) to give you the chance to set things right?

I think so. A Jew is required (halachically) to forgive someone who does in fact make amends (and asks for forgiveness), so I think it stands to reason that you're also required to let him try.

The Yom Kippur liturgy includes a part where we say something like "just as we ask you for forgiveness, so do we also forgive those who have wronged us". I had a real problem with that the first year (and it still makes me twitch a bit), because at some level I want to hold out the option to not forgive something heinous, should such be done to me. But it hasn't been, and I hope never will, so I guess it's an abstract issue. But also, that part of the liturgy says we forgive even if we aren't asked to, where elsewhere there are requirements to ask, so my analytical side has a field day with this.

I.e., is it acceptable for them to say something like "I want you to know that it really made me angry when you did X last year, and there is nothing you can do to repair this?"

One would have to ask what the point of saying something like that would be, if you aren't giving the person the chance to respond. Something like this seems like it could be deliberately hurtful, which is forbidden elsewhere in halacha. (Nothing to do with the season.)

Everything I've said is about Jews interacting with Jews. Halacha, of course, cannot bind non-Jews. However, a wrong done to a gentile is just as serious as one done to a Jew, even if the gentile isn't expected to forgive me when I ask, so I don't tend to focus much on this distinction.

[indigodove.livejournal.com]

If I haven't already said so, a Sweet New Year to you.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Have a sweet and wonderful new year. :)

[cellio]

Thank you!

(I think you did, but it's ok: they don't cancel out like double negatives do. :-) )

[cellio]

Thank you! And I hope the coming year brings you peace and happiness as well.

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

I.e., is it acceptable for them to say something like "I want you to know that it really made me angry when you did X last year, and there is nothing you can do to repair this?"

One would have to ask what the point of saying something like that would be, if you aren't giving the person the chance to respond. Something like this seems like it could be deliberately hurtful, which is forbidden elsewhere in halacha. (Nothing to do with the season.)

If they knew you were angry at them and didn't know why, they would then know. However, I grant you that this would be a deliberately hurtful act unless possibly they specifically approached you to ask why you didn't like them.

This is coming close to being personal. There are blood relatives whose very existence I will no longer acknowledge. I will literally ignore them at family gatherings. I have not volunteered the specifics of why I find them offensive because as you say, it's a deliberate hateful act and I will not be dragged down to their level. They have not asked, nor do I think, do they care. However, I am tired of being hurt, so I no longer acknowledge they exist.

[cellio]

You certainly don't need to spend time around people you can't stand to be around. Avoidance is better than a confrontation if there is nothing they could do to set matters right. Should they actually ask you, I assume you would tell them as politely as you're able why you don't like them -- and if they don't ask, you don't need to volunteer that.

Re: Safe at home

[lefkowitzga.livejournal.com]

One of the challenges of attending Harold's wondeful seudah that one year was that I had to arrange for a driver who was interested in going to a Purim seudah but willing to be mostly sober.

It helps to have a friend who enjoys road trips and your company, plus gets an upset stomach long before the alcohol makes a dent anywhere else.

I don't know if I could stimulate a similarly festive gathering myself

Maybe not as crowded, but if Polyhymnia bacchanalia parties are any indication, certainly as raucous.

Re: Safe at home

[cellio]

I either didn't know or, more likely, had forgotten about the upset-stomach thing. I'm glad I wasn't preventing you from indulging to the level you would have otherwise sought. :-)

Maybe not as crowded, but if Polyhymnia bacchanalia parties are any indication, certainly as raucous.

True. It all depends on the crowd. (Now you've got me speculating about the local Jewish SCA folks...)

Forgiveness...

[patsmor.livejournal.com]

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<font color="navy"<i>Cellio said that there is a portion of the services which says
"just as we ask you for forgiveness, so do we also forgive those who have wronged us". </i>

Of course, being perverse, if one of us gentiles is a Christian, s/he has said in nearly every service, "And forgive us our [trespasses|debts], as we forgive [those who trespass against us|our debtors]." Which, to me, means that a Christian is required to forgive you, whether or not you try to make amends. Forgiveness is, as best I can tell, one of the central tenets of the Christian belief system; God will forgive all your sins -"wash you white as snow" if you acknowledge his son as lord and Savior. The Christ took all the sins of mankind on himself during the Crucifixion, and if you acknowledge that sacrifice and declare him Lord, you get the prize of forgiveness.

Which takes me to the conundrum: what happens to the guilt/sin of those of us who are not Christian? Are our sins counted twice?

<i>Dagonell said, "There are blood relatives whose very existence I will no longer acknowledge."</i>

I came very close to that with my father, because of issues surrounding his handling of my mother's estate. Eventually, because he simply acted as if I had said nothing at all, and because he died, I have had to look at that anger and fury and give it up to the void, because it does nothing to help me and will never have closure with him. As I have gotten older -- nearly a half century! -- I fear I see too much of the reasons and motivations and pain of other people, which cause them to do really dumb or hateful things. And I'm hoping that, as I think, I've worked out the hurts I've given to others to the point that we can at least understand one another, even if forgiveness isn't possible.

Thank you, C, for this very interesting thought chain.</font>

Re: Forgiveness...

[cellio]

Of course, being perverse, if one of us gentiles is a Christian, s/he has said in nearly every service, "And forgive us our [trespasses|debts], as we forgive [those who trespass against us|our debtors]."

*boggle* Y'know, I never read that as actually granting blanket forgiveness, but I can see how it could. I read it as "just as I have forgiven those...", rathar than "just as I now forgive those...". One acknowledges actions that you say you've taken; the other replaces action. I wonder which meaning was intended. Maybe the grammar of the original language makes it clearer?

I would not be surprised to find that a Christian is required to forgive if asked (and maybe if not). As you say, it's a cornerstone of the faith.

Which takes me to the conundrum: what happens to the guilt/sin of those of us who are not Christian? Are our sins counted twice?

That's part of a larger question. Didn't the church eventually rule that those who've never had access to Christian teaching are ok (not damned)? I think (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the current view is that those who actually reject Christianity are damned, except that Jews are ok (as of sometime late in the 20th century) because they have their own covenant with God. (How do they rule on Muslims, who follow Jesus as a prophet but not as a manifestation of God?)

I have had to look at that anger and fury and give it up to the void,

Congratulations. That can be hard to do. I'm so glad that my relations with my family are good!