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culinary near-miss

I wanted to make banana bread last night using the bread machine. I've never made banana bread before (with or without a machine). I got out the book of recipes only to find that the only banana-bread recipe is for a "quick bread". I've never made quick breads, because the manual contains warnings about them being fragile, about needing to tweak cooking time on the fly, and so forth. That's too much work; I want to dump stuff in the machine and ignore it until it brings forth bread three or four hours later.

So I started comparing quick-bread recipes to regular-bread recipes to figure out the mapping. The big difference, of course, is that quick-breads don't use yeast; they use baking soda instead. There was nothing that existed in both quick and regular forms, but after looking at several recipes I concluded that this was the only major difference. I was concerned that the quick-bread recipe might have too much liquid, but I decided to forge ahead anyway. (I did make one other substitution, water for milk, because I keep my bread machine parve.)

So I used the quick-bread ingredients, without changing quantities, but then instead of the baking soda I used the canonical 2 teaspoons of yeast from the regular recipes. During the first mixing the "dough" looked positively soupy, so I added one more cup of flour and helped the machine stir it in. It still looked soupy, but I decided to leave it alone.

Three hours later the bread looked like bread rather than soggy glop. However, it had overflowed the pan rather thoroughly, creating a mess that I will deal with more thoroughly tonight. Because of this, there was no chance of removing the loaf cleanly from the pan. I ended up using a spatula to carve out the main part. I still didn't know what I would find inside at this point, but I had just given up on presentation.

The interior is bread-like and tastes fine. There was some caked flour in the corners, but otherwise the mix of ingredients seemed to be right. Next time I'll just scale it all down to 75% or so.

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Interesting; I've never thought to map a quick bread to a yeast bread (or vice versa). I've made sweet yeasted breads (cinnamon, chai, raisin, etc), but varied a yeast dough to do that, rather than starting with quick breads (which I think of as sweet and with a sort of denser-than-cake sort of crumb).

Oh, and the other difference for me (being non-bread-machine-endowed) is that a quick bread is a batter that I bake right then, while a yeast bread is a process that takes more time before I put it in the oven, but I can control the duration of the process by varying the amount of yeast and the temperature.

If it's useful, I know the bread porn book I have (the Dorling Kindersley bread book, with lots of photos) has a squash or carrot bread recipe; I'd think replacing banana mush for squash mush would work fine.

I forgot one important detail in my report: I used the "sweet bread" cycle on the machine. I don't know how the cooking differs, but with all the banana and sugar in the pan, it seemed the right thing to do.

I don't really know how to make conventional bread. I mean, I know the theory, but I lack confidence. Gee, has that doubled in size? I didn't measure it. How hard and frequently should I "punch down" the dough? How should I adjust yeast to compensate for temperature variation in the kitchen? It's all so complicated, and the bread machine would be happy to help... (I made my own challah once; then I decided that $1 per week was a perfectly fair price to pay the bakery.)

If it's useful, I know the bread porn book I have (the Dorling Kindersley bread book, with lots of photos) has a squash or carrot bread recipe; I'd think replacing banana mush for squash mush would work fine.

Ooh, that sounds interesting! (For the carrot or squash bread directly, too.)

Ah, my ignorance of bread machines is showing: I didn't know there was a sweet bread setting.

I find yeasted bread incredibly forgiving, actually. It doesn't have to precisely doubled (Does it look larger and poofier than the dough you set aside? Then it'll likely be just fine.). Punching down is anything that will get the gas pockets deflated; I usually give it one punch in the middle, then as I form the dough try to get any other pockets deflated. Yeast adjusting can be pretty crude, frankly; I don't use measuring spoons, just the well of my hand, and add 'less' if I want a long rise or it's warm out, 'more' if it's a short rise or cold out (or there are lots of add-ins that make the dough denser).

Challah around here is much pricier, apparently. One of the premium local brands (too sweet to be anything but a dessert challah to me, but everyone else loves it) is $6/loaf, which adds up pretty quickly.

I'll try to get you the recipe tonight. It's well worth finding a copy to browse, if you can; the recipes are good, but the photography is outstanding (like most DK books).

Thanks for the bread-making advice! (Also for the book tip; I'll look for it.)

The normal-sized challah loaves here are around $3. One of the bakeries also sells mini-loaves for $1, which are just fine for the two of us. Even that was sometimes producing leftovers, though (Dani's not big on bread), and I only need so many parve bread crumbs at any given time, so lately I've been buying challah rolls by the dozen, bagging them pairwise, and freezing them. This, too, amounts to under $1 per Shabbat.

I have three major strategies for leftover bread:

Foist it on friends and orkers (easier if they're not on Atkins :-)(works best with homemade bread).
Make breadcrumbs for stuffing.
Make bread pudding (also prime for foistage), especially bread pudding.

I started making challah because there wasn't anywhere close that carried it (then), and the time investment (not to mention dollar investment; it's about $11 for 50 lb of flour.) was so much lower, and I continue because I'm lazy, and it's easier not to have to go out for bread close to Shabbat. I'm not sure why I don't do well with frozen whole loaves/rolls, but I don't. Bread crumbs eventually get used, though. Hm. Maybe it's because there's a premium on space in my freezer, and it's more important to me to have other things in the freezer than bulky bread, when I can make it fresh pretty quickly.

Periodically I think of making a huge bread-making post, about the things I do automatically now, after 10 years of making my own. I never seem to have time while I have the inspiration, though.

*laugh* So you make challah because you're lazy, and I buy it because I'm lazy. :-)

Periodically I think of making a huge bread-making post, about the things I do automatically now, after 10 years of making my own. I never seem to have time while I have the inspiration, though.

I would like to encourage you in this. I enjoy reading your food posts anyway and have gotten a bunch of ideas from you (can you believe I had never thought to roast veggies for Shabbat before you mentioned it?), and I think a bread post would be wonderful.

The book is actually called Ultimate Bread, by Eric Treuille and Ursula Ferrigno, published by Dorling Kindersley. It's a pretentious title, and there are definitely a couple of holes here and there, but it's a beautiful book. (There's a section on quick breads, too.)

So, it turns out that there are two recipes that might be of interest. Carrot bread uses freshly grated carrot (or a variant with beets), while pumpkin bread uses (cooked) pureed pumpkin. (Extremely abbreviated directions, btw.)

Carrot Bread
has 2 tsp yeast
1.25 c water
3.5 c flour
2 tsp salt
0.5 lb grated carrot
1 tbsp melted unsalted butter

If your yeast needs proofing, add it to 0.5 c water, then 5 min later add that to the flour and salt. Add carrots and butter and remaining water. Form dough. Knead until smooth but still sticky. Put in bowl, cover, let double (1-1.5 hours). Punch down. Rest 10 minutes. Shape into a round loaf. Put on floured baking sheet and let rise, covered, until double, about 45 minutes. Bake in preheated 400 F oven for 45 minutes, until golden. Cool.

Pumpkin Bread
has 15 oz pumpkin puree
2 tsp yeast
2 tsp honey
4 c flour
2 tsp salt
egg glaze (1 egg yolk and 1 tbsp milk)
2 tbsp pumpkin seeds, for topping

Proof yeast in 0.25 c water, if needed. Add honey after 5 minutes; stir to dissolve. Add to flour and salt, then add pumpkin puree. Mix to form sticky dough. Knead until very smooth, silky, elastic. Put in bowl, cover, let rise until double, about 1.5 hours. Punch down, let rest 10 minutes. Shape into round loaf. Put on oiled baking sheed, let rise (covered) until doubled, about an hour. Brush with egg glaze and sprinkle pumpkin seeds on top. Bake in preheated 425 F oven for 40 min, until golden. Cool.

(Note: I use a kind of yeast that doesn't need proofing in water first, which is why I changed the directions to say to proof the yeast if needed.)

Thank you! And thanks especially for the name and author info for the book; now I know why "Dorling Kindersley" wasn't making for happy searches. :-)

The 'dough' cycle can be a nice compromise-- let the bread machine do the kneading, first rising and punching down; then you shape as you wish, wait for second rising and bake. If you use the recommended size pan, it'll be ready to bake when it's just up to the top of the pan. If you're doing something freestyle like challah, it won't matter much if you bake a bit too soon; it'll just be a touch more dense.

Good point! Let the bread machine do most of the work. :-)

the funny bit is that I made banana bread last night. Though I didn't make it in a bread machine.

Banana bread is a seriously easy bread to make without a bread machine. It probably only takes ten additional minutes to assemble the ingredients, including mixing everything, and then you throw it in the oven for an hour or less (depending on the size of the loaf). I have several great (and easy) recipes if you want them.

As for quick breads in the bread machine, I have never experienced a problem with them, nor do I know of anyone who has. I'd recommend trying it once without altering the recipe, because I really don't think you'll run into the issues that the manual suggests.

Ok, so the "batter" state is normal for quick breads, and conventionally you just pour them into a loaf pan and stick them into the oven? That doesn't sound any harder than cake; I can do that. :-)

I've probably got non-bread-machine recipes in some of my conventional cookbooks. (Or, for that matter, the bread-machine recipe probably works fine, leaving only temperature and cooking time unspecified.) I just never thought to look.

(You see, I had these very-ripe bananas, and I didn't want to waste them...)

yes, the batter state is completely normal. And yes, you just pour them into a pan and stick them in the oven. It's actually simpler than a cake. The batter is far less finicky than cake batter is. Cake batter is much more sensitive to overbeating, and must have precise measurements usually (depending on the type of cake). Plus, you don't have to put icing on banana bread (not that it's NECESSARY for cake, but it is a typical extra step).

If you find yourself with overripe bananas again and you don't have time to make banana bread with them right then and there, put them in the freezer. The skins will turn completely black, but the bananas will still be find for banana bread when you take them out. Set them on the counter until they're defrosted enough that you can peel them, and mash them up with a fork, a whisk, or a potato masher. Voila!

Thanks! I hadn't thought to freeze them; it's handy to know that that works.

You can mash them first and freeze them in Gladware; that's what my mom always did.

Also, you might find this useful: http://bread.allrecipes.com/default.asp?lnkid=48 -- there are all sorts of excellent recipes there for DIY bread and bread machines. Allrecipes.com is a real treasure trove.

Ooh, handy site -- thanks!

Thanks also for the mashing tip. It's more compact and less weird that way; I'm not sure what would happen the first time someone other than me discovered the black bananas. :-)

I got very annoyed once when someone I was living with threw out the over-ripe bananas I was getting ready to mash and freeze for banana bread. "But they were all black!" "I know; they were perfect!"

This from someone who won't eat a banana with a bruise...

The idea of trying to turn a quick bread into a yeast bread had frankly never occured to me. I haven't had a whole lot of success making my own yeast breads, but I find quick breads to be easy and pretty forgiving (and I don't even have a bread machine). I'm surprised the manual made them sound so finicky, that hasn't been my experience at all.

Perhaps they are more finicky in a (or this) bread machine than they are in the oven? There's a simple answer to that. :-)

My own instinct is that (a) quick bread doughs are a lot wetter than yeast bread doughs and (b) this will tend to encourage the dough rising too much. Then again, I always have to use less yeast than the recipe calls for because otherwise the machine always overflows... and this is with one of the early 3-cup-capacity machines (most bread machine recipes I see assume 2-cup-capacity machines, and I don't scale the recipes up).

I have a few bread books which might have some banana bread recipes in them. (I'm not especially fond of banana bread, so I generally skip over those recipes.)

BTW, my machine has a different setting for fruit breads than for sweet breads. I'd have to dig out the manual to see what the difference is, though.

BTW, my machine has a different setting for fruit breads than for sweet breads.

Interesting. Mine has basic (what I almost always use), french, sweet, quick, and several others that I don't recall. I've never seen a fruit setting, though. (Well, fruit bread. My machine has a jam mode, which I have never used.)

Lessee... Basic Wheat: Medium - Dark - Light; European; Fruit & Nut; Dough (kneads but doesn't bake). For sweet breads one is supposed to use Basic/Light, to avoid caramelizing the crust too much. I don't think I've ever used a setting other than Basic/Medium.

Ah. My machine has orthogonal controls: type (what we've mostly been listing), darkness (light/medium/dark), and loaf size ("1", "1.5", "2" pounds, though this is an archtype as different types of bread use heavier or lighter ingredients). I've got, if I recall correctly, 11 options for the "type" menu, most of them weird. :-) (I just remembered, for example, that there is a special setting for making gluten-free bread.)

The strange thing is that this isn't one of those ultra-fancy models; it was pretty much the generic decent machine when I got it several years ago.

Oh, and I'll agree with the other folks here: quick breads aren't finicky at all, they're dead easy and fast. The only way I can imagine them being finicky is that heavier add-ins are likely to sink to the bottom because the dough doesn't have much structural integrity... but you wouldn't normally use those in a quick bread anyway.

You are obviously not a fan of chocolate-chip walnut pecan bannana bread. :-)

Heretic. Chocolate chips belong in cookies; raisins belong in sweet breads; and nuts belong unadultrated in little bowls for easy nibbling. :-) (Except peanuts, which are permitted into cookies and stir-fry, and sliced almonds, which are permitted in a variety of other dishes, particularly ones involving chicken.)

Raisins are good in sweet breads, so are chocolate chips, and nuts. And they're all good eaten in gorp, or separately, or...

Actually, chocolate chips belong in donuts. I need to pull out the donut maker one of these days.

Chips in donuts are ok (donuts are sort of like cookies with attitude), but chips in bagels are Just Wrong. That's bread in disguise, and I'm in to their sneakiness! :-)

Mmm, donuts... I didn't know you had a maker. I assume it makes the cake-style ones?

I keep thinking about making doughnuts in my deep-fryer....

Guess I shouldn't show you the recipes I have for chocolate chip bread, then? (Not that I've been much inclined to try them either :)

You know about fried doughnuts for Chanukah, right? Seems like you should start practicing in advance so you'll be sure to get them right. :-)

Guess I shouldn't show you the recipes I have for chocolate chip bread, then?

It's ok; I have my own such recipes that I just ignore. Dani is a big fan of chocolate chips in bread, muffins, pancakes, and pretty much anything else that will stand still long enough for chip insertion. And then he has the nerve to object to blueberries in those same venues! Hmpf. No accounting for taste. :-)

I have made dessert breads with a swirl of chocolate through it, and a wonderful not-sweet chocolate bread that uses a lot of cocoa (again, from the DK bread book). Both were also good recycled into chocolate bread pudding...

I know about latkes; I've never been a big potato pancake person, though, so I was considering looking at some of the more Sephardic traditions instead :)

but [chocolate] chips in bagels are Just Wrong

While they're not quite my cup of tea, I don't really agree. Chocolate chip bagels are not Wrong. Chocolate chip and garlic bagels are Wrong.

(He says, remembering an infamous bagel-making party at Gyrth and Melisande's house some years back. Vissevald made a chocolate chip and garlic bagel, and spent the rest of the morning trying to find someone willing to eat it...)

I would eat garlic bagels if they didn't also contain chocolate chips. :-) (I assume you're saying that the combination is Wrong, not that it's Wrong to use garlic in bagels.)

You mean your food parties don't have an implicit "you make it, you eat it" rule?

Gosh, I didn't realize I'd spark such a long thread.

I'm open-minded; I'll eat sweet bread without nuts or chocolate chips... but I like it with. :-)

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DK bread porn

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