learning experience

[cellio]

A post in a community for Jewish converts (and converts in training) raised this question: the poster has a disabled sibling and has in the past been the person who accompanies said sibling to church on Christmas. (The rest of the family is in the choir.) Is this behavior permitted, required, or forbidden of a Jew?

Much of the feedback so far weighs in on the side of "required -- family is family". Someone cited honoring one's parents (the source of the request), and a couple people mentioned protecting a life (the sibling is apparently in real danger of injury without someone there).

I, on the other hand, am leaning toward "forbidden", though "permitted" is a possibility. Definitely not "required", though.

The issue is complex. While the sibling needs a caregiver, that's a service that can be hired -- so there's no apparent need for the poster to do it personally. Of course it's important to honor one's parents (this comes up a lot in text), but the talmud also teaches that if a parent asks you to transgress the Torah, you must decline (Bava Metzia 32a). This raises the question of whether attending another religion's worship service -- on its second-holiest day, to boot -- is avodah zara, forbidden worship. Is it enough if you don't intend to worship? What if you don't participate? What if you don't listen? That is a complex question with varied answers depending on circumstances, ranging from exactly what will take place to the strength of your own Jewish education and commitment, and you really need to ask your rabbi for a personal ruling.

I think the experience of facing this issue is valuable for the conversion candidate, actually. As a member of a minority religion (that sometimes faces hostility from others), sometimes you are going to have to make choices between your religion and your family/friends/society -- things like this, or resolving Shabbat issues with your employer, or various other matters. Finding out how you will handle those choices before it's "too late" -- before you convert and acquire new obligations -- seems useful to me.

I assume that most conversion candidates face some sort of religion-vs-world-at-large test during the process, but I don't actually know.

Comments

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

Many orthodox folks won't set foot in a church. Personally I think that's a major fault line between orthodoxy and Conservatism. There really are many excellent sources that declare in no uncertain terms that Christianity is not avodah zarah, enough to be normative, I think. Insisting on otherwise just flies in the face of too much other evidence, and I don't think one should act on the basis of what's essentially a superstition. I was at an old friend's wedding in a Catholic church this summer and didn't think twice about it.

Now my story is of going with my wife to Christmas eve services. I had just settled into the Chinese food when a passing harmful remark she made to her sister, as the latter was going out the door, prompted her to want to go to the church and make up with her sister. I've been to Christian services before, but the whole lighting the candle thing and all made me distinctly uncomfortable. But my wife found it valuable, because she felt so alienated being there, so much that it just was not her, that she left a stronger Jew than she had been before.

We talk about the Christmas thing (ie being at her house with the tree and all) every year, because I really hate Christmas, yet it is very important to her family, and I know she feels the tug back to them. The stakes are higher with the baby, too. And there's the fact that her family is pretty amazingly anti-Semitic. But I have decided that it's part of her and I know that she is not a complete person when she feels estranged from them. Darchei shalom is a Jewish value too, so we live with it for now. That's how I would advise the person you originally referred to, to think about it.

[mishtaneh.livejournal.com]

I'm getting the impression that Orthodox is increasingly moving toward the position that the Christian Trinity constitutes idolatry. (Which makes me wonder how they feel about Christian Orthodox movements, which "officially" accepted the doctrine of the Trinity ~1000 years ago to avoid a repeat of the Fourth Crusade, but in reality have never agreed with it.)

In a sense it seems kind of extremist to me... yet at the same time I can see their point. Although, to be honest, I think the specifically Catholic obsession with saints, and even more so with the "Virgin Mary", is far closer to idolatry.

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

Right, well one point is that they do not distinguish between, say, Unitarians, Protestants, and Catholics. It would seem to me that the avodah zarah argument would have to have some reflection on the content of each of those beliefs.

But even more so, I'm not sure I do see their point. "Avodah zarah" originally meant offerings, human and otherwise, to false gods. Christians differ on the nature of God, but they are monotheistic. I also think that in a sense it's a disservice to not recognize a faith that, for all the bad history there, did spread the idea of monotheism around the world.

[mishtaneh.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it, but I think a lot of it is essentially sour grapes at having to deal with a mutant version of their own beliefs. (As to avodah zarah, by their argument Jesus is a false god. I won't try to discuss whether it should, as the Trinity never made much sense to me and any counter to that position must hinge on the Trinity.)

[kmelion.livejournal.com]

most forms of Christianity are concidered idolatry not JUST because of Jesus and the belief in the Trinity, but because of the symbolism of the icons, the wafer and wine, the genuflecting...

I forget which branch of Christianity (the one without the icons and most of the above), bt it's ok for a Jew to enter their church because their practice of Christianity doesn't fall under idol worship

[geekosaur]

That's likely to be the Orthodox Christian denominations I mentioned earlier in this thread; they disapprove of icons (one of the early dividing issues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism being the latter's insistence on having a cross on the altar), and their rejection of the Trinity makes "communion" meaningless to them.

However, I'd not point to genuflecting as a problem; we have our own version, after all. And, unfortunately, one can stretch a point (possibly too far) to claim that we've invested perhaps a bit more iconography in Torah scrolls than is justified by the need to show proper respect for them. (On the other hand, we're not perfect either; maybe we need to do some self-examination on that issue.)

I will agree that the whole business with the cross is unjustifiable iconography, as is the "fish" that is increasingly common, and other icons used by various denominations (many Protestant branches use an icon of flame with a cross motif worked in, and then there's the Catholic "sacred heart").

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, which Orthodox branch are you thinking of? IIRC, icons are even more popular in the Eastern Christian churches than they are in the Roman Catholic one, and having been to the local Greek Orthodox church, I'll vouch for there being no shortage of icons and images.

[geekosaur]

Interesting. I'm mostly thinking back to the research I did involving the original Byzantine Orthodox church (from which the others broke off after the Byzantines were forced to accept Catholic doctrine), and the iconography issue was fairly key to that. I admit I don't have much experience with current Orthodox Christian practice so I probably shouldn't be surprised at creeping iconography; but Greek Orthodox I would expect to be thoroughly contaminated by Catholic influence as the price they paid to get support from Rome after the fall of Constantinople.

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

I recall iconography being an issue, but I could have sworn that it was actually the other way around, that the Byzantines had to convince the Romans that all the icons were okay. Perhaps this is a period difference and it went both ways at points--one datapoint I recently acquired by going to an exhibit of the works of the artist El Greco, who started life in the Rennaissance as an Eastern Orthodox iconographer, was that his work in Spain (after he stopped painting icons but still painted religious figures) was fairly controversial because it invested too much realism at the expense of teaching utulity, which was the prime reason that icons were allowed at all in the Roman countries.

Also, afaik, Greek Orthodox is the Eastern church that ignores Rome, and Byzantine Catholic is the Eastern church that follows Rome. It would seem that the former should be the less influenced of the two, being, I'd guess, made up of those broken-off factions you mentioned, if they still exist. (It seems to make no sense that the Romans would just let half the Eastern church leave if they had managed to take them over when the Byzantine Empire fell.)

[mishtaneh.livejournal.com]

Oh, and sorry for switching userids on you; I need to decide which one I'm using when posting.... :/

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

No problem--because the user-pictures are the same, it took me about ten minutes before I noticed that the userids were different. :)

[goljerp]

The shul that I grew up at (The Jewish Community of Amherst) has, as its building, a former Congregationalist church. Apparently it was very easy to turn into a synegogue: remove a cross at the front, and away you go. Sure, there are stained glass windows, but they're nonrepresentational. OK, most shuls don't have donor plates from the Dickinson family, but still...

As a consequence, whenever I go into a certain kind of church (for example, on the Freedom Trail in Boston), I think, "gee, this looks just like a shul!")

[cellio]

I think it all comes down to specifics: what type of Christianity and what type of service on the one side, but also how strong and self-assured and educated a Jew on the other. A self-confident learned rabbi might be fine where an unsure ba'al teshuva is not. Unitarian may be different from Roman Catholic, which may be different from Greek Orthodox. A regular service vs a major holiday vs a funeral for a relative may be different. There are lots of factors.

So my point was that it may or may not be avodah zara, but in this case it's unnecessary for the person to land in that situation, and in general you should discuss the topic with your rabbi. The answer may well be "no problem; go", but you need to check and not assume, IMO.

[siderea]

I think it all comes down to specifics: what type of Christianity and what type of service on the one side, but also how strong and self-assured and educated a Jew on the other.

Yes, it seems to me (and I am not Jewish, though I am Ashkenazi) the question is not whether it is permitted/forbidden/required for a Jew to do this, but whether it is permitted/forbidden/required for this Jew to do this.

Well, that's one question. But (being practical as is my wont) another, less theological one is: has anyone checked with the handicapped sister to inquire how she might feel to be saddled with a keeper who was pointedly not joining in with the service? Mightn't she feel uncomfortable with that situation?

At any rate, I feel the need to point out the ludicrousness of someone needing a Jew to accompany them to a Christmas service. We're talking about a gathering of a whole barn full of Christians. I can't believe there isn't a single one there who can be convinced to take a sister-in-faith under her wing for one night. What, does she think nobody else is going to show up? Her fellow congregationists, what are they, chopped liver?

[cellio]

Her fellow congregationists, what are they, chopped liver?

Good point!

[goljerp]

This is a toughie. I would suggest that in this situation, the person should try really hard to get someone else to take care of the sibling. The reason I would give would be that one does not place a stumbling block in front of the blind. What I'm thinking is that it's a tough thing to convert, and that attending christmas services will likely be a difficult emotional experience for the conversion candidate. Why should the potential convert go through this if it can be avoided?

[cellio]

Yes. In this case the situation is completely avoidable, so I find arguments to do it anyway "to honor your parents" to be misguided. In a different case, like a wedding or funeral of a close family member, things are (potentially) very different. As I commented above, there are lots of factors to consider.

And avoiding placing stumbling blocks is important, though I suppose technically that's not a commandment that binds the gentile relatives. :-)

[goljerp]

a wedding or funeral of a close family member, things are (potentially) very different.

I agree totally.

And avoiding placing stumbling blocks is important, though I suppose technically that's not a commandment that binds the gentile relatives.

No, no, of course not. I was thinking as if I were speaking to the potential convert, saying to them that just as one doesn't place a stumbling block in front of someone else, so too should we not place stumbling blocks in front of ourselves.

[cellio]

just as one doesn't place a stumbling block in front of someone else, so too should we not place stumbling blocks in front of ourselves.

Good point! And not just for converts. With the ever-increasing body of chumrot (stringencies) and minhagim (customs) that are not yet law, this is a trap that we can all fall into. People can be scared off from doing what is actually required by the much-larger body of what they think is required.

[cecerose.livejournal.com]

Like you, I'd lean towards "permitted," given extentuating circumstances, especially if his family is unable to find a suitable caretaker.

I had a religion vs. world of large experience when I went to my niece's First Communion. I considered myself a guest (my family was aware of my status) and attended, but didn't consider it a form of idolatry. It was instructive for me because I discovered just how alien my Catholic roots had become to me.

I'm going to have a bit of a challenge this December because my sisters and their families are coming to spend the winter holidays with me. They've agreed to observe my dietary restrictions. We've yet to negotiate on the "celebration" of Christmas. I won't go to Mass with them, but on the otherhand if they want to open gifts for the girls and celebrate with a meal on Xmas Day, that's fine. There won't be a tree or any other Christmas decorations, that's something I'm going to be pretty firm on. Again, I will see myself as a "guest" but not a participant in the celebration

It's interesting negotiating those boundaries, but fortunately, my sisters are pretty understanding...

[cellio]

I assume, from what you've said about your condo, that they will be staying elsewhere. So this allows them some space to do things they think are important without pushing that into your space. It also makes it easier for you to be a visitor; it's not like they're staying at your house while wanting to set up a tree, for instance.

I visit my family in late December (generally a Sunday near the 25th) and we exchange gifts, because this is important to them. (I am selective in wrapping paper, by the way.) I don't participate in anything religious, and my parents have been pretty considerate about the music. (My father loves Christmas music...) They have also been very accommodating on the food front. They're trying to make me comfortable, so I'll honor their traditions to the extent I can. At this point it's really a visit, a meal, and an exchange of gifts.

Fortunately, we don't have any more small children in the immediate family; my sister's kids are in high school and college now. And they are so areligious that if they marry and have kids, the odds of something like a christening or a first communion even happening, let alone me being expected to be there, are minute. At this point, the only masses I expect to ever have to attend for family members are funerals.

[cecerose.livejournal.com]

No, my sister from the east coast and her family will be staying with me the whole time. The other will drive down for a couple of days.

One way I'm dealing with it is my personal space "room" is emphatically Jewish. (I've lived in roomshares most of my adult life.) I have a mezzuzah on the door way, etc. I see open communal space that I share with my roommate, family and friends as being more neutral, hence flexible territory (i.e. I don't have a kosher kitchen, though I observe kashrut, etc.)

However, no Christmas decorations....it is a Jewish home, after all.

And no sappy Christmas music. I can deal with Bach...and Alvin and the Chipmunks...but that's about it...

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

In my own utterly non-traditionalist way, I'd say "permitted"

If you're not taking PART in the service, I don't see any harm in it. I was just at the christening of a friend's child. I sat respectfully, didn't sing along with them (although that was REALLY tempting), and was there for my friends.

But I also think an awful lot of the restrictions we place on ourselves are silly.

[cellio]

I agree with you that we sometimes go overboard in restricting ourselves.

I've been to Christian weddings and funerals since I became religious, but not to regular masses. I think it's probably easier when you're there for a lifecycle event; people assume you're there for the family, not really to worship. (You get the same thing at bar mitzvahs sometimes.) The times I have been very uncomfortable at Christian services were when I was surprised by something -- for example, showing up to a "memorial service" for a friend and only then finding out that it was a full Catholic mass, and not one like I had ever seen before. (When they asked everyone to take hands and sing some hymn to Jesus -- I forget which -- I found an urgent need to be elsewhere.) When I know what to expect, I'm not bothered and even find myself doing the anthropologist thing. ("Oh look; there's kedusha.")

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

Hm. I've not found that to be a problem for me; when I'm at a Christian service of any sort, I simply don't take part. You're also significantly more religious than I am which might play some part; I keep kosher but will eat vegetables and fish such out; I'm not and never have been shomer shabbes.

I gather, reading through this entry, that you weren't raised Jewish (I'm pretty sure you've been so the times that I've met you), and I wonder if that might not play an additional role as well? (Just talking off the top of my head here).

[cellio]

Actually, I eat vegeterian and dairy out too, and while I keep Shabbat it's not necessarily in the same way that my Orthodox friends do. (I see no problem with musical instruments, for one example.) But I suspect I am more religious "theologically", regardless of practice.

I gather, reading through this entry, that you weren't raised Jewish (I'm pretty sure you've been so the times that I've met you), and I wonder if that might not play an additional role as well? (Just talking off the top of my head here).

That makes sense (and yes, you're right about my background). There's probably also more risk of me doing something reflexively that, if I thought about it, I definitely would not do now -- because it was habit at some point in the past. So even though this hasn't actually happened, I'm spending cycles on preventing it.

[zare-k.livejournal.com]

This is sort of tangential, but:

My mother knows that I no longer follow the Christian faith and have no desire to do so again. Yet, she keeps inviting me to go to church with her, and often not in a way that is especially respectful (e.g. claiming that I need to come to church as part of learning to lead an ethical life). I always refuse, not only because it conflicts with my own beliefs but because it seems disrespectful of the church as well. I wouldn't be there out of belief, or sincere interest in the faith, or for purposes of cultural learning and research (it's the church I went to growing up, so I have a reasonable idea of what it's like). So I can either sit there listening and not participating at all, which would arouse people's curiousity and put me in the unenviable position of trying to explain myself to my parents' friends without offending anyone (although I suppose that's my problem), or I can play "religious dress-up" by going through the motions of a service I don't believe in. That feels hypocritical to me, and I also feel like it would be offensive to people who actually believed in the service.

Eh. I wonder if we would get along better on this issue if I had actively chosen another religion rather than just leaving one. That way I could say "I'm not going to church because I think God actually wants me to do something else instead" rather than "I'm not going to church and I don't necessarily believe that I'm supposed to be doing anything at all".

[cellio]

I agree with you about playing along being hypocritical.

Eh. I wonder if we would get along better on this issue if I had actively chosen another religion rather than just leaving one.

That could be. My father hasn't called me a heathen in years. (Mind, he was never nasty about it, but it was there...) And for some reason, people sometimes just seem unwilling to believe that you can follow a set of ethics not out of religious belief but out of belief that this is The Right Thing To Do.