cellio | interviewed by cecerose

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interviewed by cecerose

1. One of your major "gripes" about your fellow Jews in the Reform movement is that how unsupportive (and at times hostile) they are of those within the movement who choose to be more religiously observant. Why do you think that is?

Some people identify culturally, but not religiously, as Jews; they want to be able to say "I'm a Jew" but without the burden of mitzvot or believing in God or the like. Some of them gravitate to Reform congregations -- for things like school for their kids, not because they want to attend services. They know that non-observance is accepted by the Reform movement, so they don't think they have to worry about people questioning them on kashrut issues at potlucks or tsk-tsking them for going to a movie on Saturday afternoon or whatever. They see Reform as "freedom from religion".

Now add people who do take religion a little more seriously but believe that traditional observance is "outdated". They will have a lot in common, on an outward basis, with the secular Jews above.

Now along comes someone who appears to be more traditional. For the secular Jew this is inconvenient, but for the modernist this is a threat. I have heard lots of people in this group complain that we're becoming "too Orthodox" if we do more prayers in Hebrew or ask people to not bring meat/milk mixtures to potlucks. For them, the Orthodox are the enemy, and they do not distinguish practice from theology. (Most have probably not even spent a lot of time thinking about the question.) To them, traditional observance is sort of like someone deliberately returning to pre-modern values like subjugation of women. It doesn't matter if that isn't true; it's a visceral reaction. Or so it appears to me, anyway. The people I've talked to seem completely unable to comprehend that someone might willingly choose to keep kosher or walk to shul or the like.

2. Both the reform and the reconstructionist movements hold that religious observance of halacha is nonbinding and voluntary -- what I find troubling is that lay reform and reconstructionist Jews often don't have enough of background to make meaningful choices. Do you see this as a problem?

Yes, it's a problem. I think it's something that's getting better; with the current swing toward tradition comes increased education, including for adults. But it's a challenge, and in practice only a very small number of Jews will put in the effort to approach this intelligently.

It's not a huge problem, though, because I think most of the rest wouldn't have "done religion" anyway, so this approach doesn't lure people away from practice. I think those who want to practice will practice, and ask questions as needed, and those who don't want to will avail themselves of the "I don't have to" excuse.

I'd actually be happier if my movement were, say, a fifth its current size but with five times as many people taking these questions seriously. Any outcome is fine but I'd love it if more people would make the effort and could articulate their positions.

3. How did you get involved in gaming? What do you enjoy most about it? (I've tried, Lord knows, I've tried and my character is currently riding around in someone's sack.)

I assume from your parenthetical comment that you'e mostly talking about role-playing games. I started playing D&D -- badly -- with a group of friends. We were all social-outcast geeks anyway and this sounded cool to several of us, so why not? We bumbled along but never really connected with experienced players. I hooked up with other players in college and played in some games then. I also got into the SCA in college, and found that there was high overlap among SCA people, D&D players, and my circle of geeky friends.

At this point, gaming is something I do with friends because it's an activity we all enjoy. I haven't sought out strangers to play with since college, and I've never played at conventions or competitions. I think I see it as primarily a social activity, so I naturally want to do it with people I like to socialize with.

As for what I enjoy about gaming itself, I think it's the chance to experiment with a character who isn't me in a world that isn't mine. Even if my characters often bear a striking resemblence to me, I can at least try. It's a creative outlet, but in a shared environment so I get help from other people.

4. Describe your favorite childhood comfort food.

Hmm, that's tough. There were several. Grilled-cheese sandwiches (unadultrated with other ingredients such as tomatoes) and cream-of-tomato soup often filled this role. So did baked ham-and-cheese sandwiches -- take a bun, load it up with thinly-sliced ham, american cheese, mustard, relish, and onions, wrap it all in foil, and stick it in the oven until gooey. No, I don't know where that came from. (Obviously, I haven't had this in rather a while...)

And then, of course, there was chocolate. I had a pretty serious sweet tooth. :-)

5. If you were given a year long all expense scholarship for Jewish study, where would you go?

Assuming I could qualify for admission (a pretty big assumption, but so's the funding :-) ), the Jerusalem campus of Hebrew Union College (the Reform seminary). Part of this is a cop-out, though; no Orthodox institution would take a woman interested in the rabbinate, which rules out most formal learning programs, and I don't think I'd gain much from the material that is traditionally taught to Orthodox women. So that means that if it's a formal program it's connected with one of the other movements, and of those Reform speaks most clearly to me.

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Hello Miss Monica
I am also a Reform Jew who has turned more traditional in recent years.
I have quite the problem with it because the rest of my family thinks I'm nuts.
I sometimes (though I know I shouldn't) refer to the synagogue in which my mother was raised and my parents were married as "St. Sinai by the Sea." (It's actually near Lake Michigan, not the ocean......)
My mother has always freaked out at the addition of ANY Hebrew to ANYTHING. My brother goes out to eat with our Rabbi and the Rabbi dares him to eat pork in front of him, which brother happily does. Oh, did I mention that by brother is president of our Temple board?
I still remember the former Rabbi here getting up during services and patting himself on the back (at about age 60) from giving up eating traife and encouraging others to do likewise.
My oldest daughter is the same age as our current Rabbi's youngest daughter and they are friends. The first time I invited this girl to sleep over, her mom asked what I was serving. When I told her, she started to clarify that they keep kosher. She was shocked when I told her that my kids and I do, too.
The list goes on but my point here is that I'm puzzled at what exactly it means to be a Reform Jew. By my very nature, or so it seems, I never seem to fit in anywhere and I don't just mean religiously. I've actually pulled back somewhat from the Conserv-odox pattern I was following a few years ago.
I just had a discussion with my mother on the topics of my oldest daughter's coming Bat Mitzvah and "The Passion." She admires my position that if people are going to hate us, my kids darn well better know all about being what other people hate. I've experienced religious prejudice all my life and it seems that my response to it has been to become far more religious. Does this seem strange? I'm curious as to why you became more religious (those sandwiches sound strange and like something my mom would love.) In the past, I've had to deal with my mom trying to feed my kids pork. She refuses to really accept these changes in me. When questioned, she *insists* that she and my dad are Jews. I know that the Jew-haters would kill them as Jews in a heartbeat but what does it mean when a Jew becomes so secular as to be indistinguishable from any goy on the street? Maybe this will make more sense when I'm less tired?

Occasionally since I've started reading your journal I've found myself wishing that I could join a helpfully (but never in 'real life' ;) labelled 'Reform Catholicism' parish where I could be the crazy lady who continues to carry out some of the more conservative practices through choice :)

the Jerusalem campus of Hebrew Union College

It's a very pretty campus. I spent a small amount of time there during my year in Israel; a group of Reconstructionist rabbinical students had a minyan on Shabbat every month or so, and HUC kindly let them have some space on the campus. (At the time I was there, the Reconstructionist seminary required a "year in Israel", but didn't have a formal program, so students studied at other programs.)

So that means that if it's a formal program it's connected with one of the other movements

That's not entirely the case. There are places like the Pardes Institute in Jerusalem or Drisha in New York City which provide the opportunity for non-denominational jewish studies. (A quick look to a friend's website who is currently at Drisha reveals a different program in Boston.)

I still remember the former Rabbi here getting up during services and patting himself on the back (at about age 60) from giving up eating traife and encouraging others to do likewise.

That's not a bad thing. It's never too late to do a mitzvah, and he should be applauded for not thinking, "eh, why start now?"

When questioned, she *insists* that she and my dad are Jews.

A person can't be "more" or "less" Jewish. If they are Jews, they are Jews, regardless of their level of practice. Ideally, they would be observant also, but secular Jews are just as Jewish as you or I.

This impetus towards traditional observance leads me to wonder why you converted Reform. Regardless of the official stance of the movement, the social reality in this country is that Reform, and to a lesser extent Conservative, do not congregationally encourage traditional observance. Depending on the synagogue, of course - I've known traditionalist Reform rabbis (R' Irving J Block a"h) and Conservative synagogues which pressure their rabbis to be less observant.

As for what is "traditionally" taught to Orthodox women, vs. what is required for rabbinate or similar curricula, there are institutions that teach material similar to that required for rabbinic training, such as Matan, Drisha, Nishmat, Pardes, Bruriah (most in Israel; Drisha in NYC, Matan I think is in Boston) - but they presume, as do Orthodox rabbinical schools, extensive background in Hebrew, Tanach and Halacha/Talmud. They also presume that one is Jewish by Orthodox standards. IOW, you'd have a lot of catching up to do to get up to the level where you could seriously think about such training.

Between these programs, and the new minyanim such as Shira Chadasha in J'lem and Darchei Noam or Montauk Minyan in New York, you could find outlets for your religio-intellectual and liturgical interests within a lefty-Orthodox milieu. Even Conservative, particularly if you avoided the pulpit, but stuck to educational positions, could be a context for this. But I don't see Reform satisfying you in the long run. And in either case, you'd have to "upgrade" your conversion.

A person can't be "more" or "less" Jewish. If they are Jews, they are Jews, regardless of their level of practice. Ideally, they would be observant also, but secular Jews are just as Jewish as you or I.
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All depends on who you ask.....I've come to the same conclusion you have (basically) but the Conservative and Orthodox *definitely* do not agree with this position.
My problem is situational: I've been taking care of the 'rents for 2 and a half years and all during that while my younger chilkdren are exposed to their ways, my ways, and the ways of their Jewish school.....It confuses my son to see grandma wolfing down shrimp, and practically waving it under his nose, b/c at age 4 telling him that "we" don't eat that doesn't explain why grandma does. Isn't she part of "we?" She did the same thing with my oldest one and bacon.........

This impetus towards traditional observance leads me to wonder why you converted Reform.

Because I could not honestly stand in front of a beit din and say "I believe every word of torah, written and oral, was written by God and traditional interpretation of all halacha is thus binding on me". Attempting to convert under Conservative or Orthodox auspices would have been fraudulent, and I won't do that. Should that view ever change, of course I will reopen the question.

Even if the apparent outcome is the same in terms of my observance (it's not; it's just way ahead of the Reform pack), the reasons for it are different. I can be quite comfortable and self-confident in saying, for example, that I do not believe that kol isha represents what God demands of me today; in an Orthodox congregation, it would be assumed that I do accept that and I would certainly be required to play along, which strikes me as pretending to be something I'm not. That's just one example; there are bunches of others. (I know there's variation in the Conservative movement; one local Conservative shul would never permit a woman on the bima (except for a bat mitzvah) and another one has asked me to lead services -- and yes, that means their rabbi accepts my conversion as valid, after investigation.)

As you said, Reform does not, congregationally, encourage observance. I can live with that if they don't get in the way of observance; sometimes that happens and that's frustrating, but some of us have been slowly raising consciousness within the shul and I think things are getting better. My rabbi is also pretty observant (and encouraging of same), which helps.

Schools: thanks for the information. I didn't realize that anyone was making this material available. I've heard (well, read) enough Orthodox rabbis say things like "learn what you need in order to be a proper Jewish wife and mother and only then should you look at anything else" that, combined with my not having found the places you mentioned, I came to an incorrect conclusion. (And yes, of course I would face challenges were I to try to attend one of those, as you mentioned.)

I think this is the difference between a halachic and a cultural definition. Halachically, anyone born to a Jewish mother (or who converts) is a Jew, and you can't undo that. Even if you convert to some other religion, you don't stop being a Jew -- you're just an apostate.

Culturally, of course, there are lots of cases where people will say "oh he's not really a Jew -- he eats pork". It's not limited to Jews, of course; "he's not a real X" is heard with varying values for X. Remember "real men don't eat quiche"? No one who said that was questioning that non-female quiche-eaters lacked certain biological properties. I think it's the same when you hear someone say that so-and-so (born from a Jewish mother) isn't "really" Jewish. (And Judaism is both a religion and a people, which is sometimes confusing.)

All depends on who you ask.....I've come to the same conclusion you have (basically) but the Conservative and Orthodox *definitely* do not agree with this position.

I am Orthodox. I would say 90% of my congregation would agree that you are either Jewish or you're not. The Chabad Rabbi that I am good friends with and his wife *definitely* agree that you're either Jewish or you're not and that if you have a Jewish mother, you *are* Jewish, period. Again, in an ideal world, you'll also be observant, but that doesn't make you "more" Jewish.

And yes, I absolutely understand the dilemma of, for example, having your mother eat shrimp in front of your children. That is always a difficult position to be in.

"oh he's not really a Jew -- he eats pork".

Wow. I've seriously never heard someone say that. Jokingly or otherwise.

there are institutions that teach material similar to that required for rabbinic training, such as Matan, Drisha, Nishmat, Pardes, Bruriah (most in Israel; Drisha in NYC, Matan I think is in Boston) - but they presume, as do Orthodox rabbinical schools, extensive background in Hebrew, Tanach and Halacha/Talmud.

I can't speak for any of these places, but I think that both Pardes and Drisha have classes which are doable for people who don't have an extensive background. Wait, why don't I look it up?

Hmm... from the Drisha FAQ:

Q I know some Hebrew, but not enough to study independently. Do you have any courses for me?

A Yes. Our courses are offered on three levels to meet the needs of our students: Yesodot (Foundations) classes are designed to develop and enhance text skills for independent study. Most classes focus on language and text skill development. Multi-Level courses are for students with some knowledge of Hebrew. Texts are studied in their original language and translations are provided in class. Advanced courses are for students who can prepare and follow texts in their original language.

Q I know some Hebrew but never studied Talmud before. Do you have any Talmud classes that might be appropriate for me?

A Drisha offers classes in Talmud across a range of levels each week. Chances are we have a Talmud class that is right for you.

From the Pardes FAQ:

I have no background in Jewish texts. Is that a problem?

No. Pardes students come from a wide range of backgrounds. Many have little or no experience with Jewish texts.

Different observance levels within a family are always a challenge. Ba'alei t'shuva, those returning to Orthodoxy, face the same issues. When the kid shows up in tzitzit and peyot and asks his secular parents to kasher their kitchen, things often don't go well.

It sounds like your parents come from a "classical Reform" background -- the phase of the Reform movement that defined itself as "what we don't do". These are the folks who wanted to fit in with the surrounding culture; they abandoned visible observance (kashrut, clothing, much of Shabbat, etc), made services more like Protestant ones (organ, English, responsive readings), and threw out a lot of good stuff without realizing it. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way, but there are a lot of people who grew up with classical Reform and who are still alive, and they fight change as "becoming like them" -- you know, the people they saw our movement as being differnet from.

Now, this is no excuse for your parents to try to do things with your kids that you don't approve of. Kashrut should be no different from, for example, rules for discipline or TV viewing or whatever. They should respect your wishes. If they won't, the same responses that are taken by people who object to the granparents' views on spanking are available to you. It's unfortunate when families can't work these things out, and I hope you are able to find some way to fix the current problems without keeping the kids away from their grandparents. (As for what to tell your four-year-old about grandpa's shrimp, you can say something like "grandpa thinks the rules are different from what we think, but we don't eat shrimp". Or something like that, I guess -- I have no background in family counseling, and your rabbi probably has better suggestions.)

The list goes on but my point here is that I'm puzzled at what exactly it means to be a Reform Jew.

I would say that if you're serious about it, it's not for the faint of heart. You have to study, and be prepared to change your own behavior as a result, while defending yourself from people who say that Reform is all about eating bacon cheeseburgers on Yom Kippur. I'm a Reform Jew because of what I believe, and I have a fantastic rabbi who helps me along the path. Some people might not have good resources, or might not avail themselves of those that are available. I get the impression that the currnet generation of schools is doing a better job than what came before, but I'm not a parent so I don't have direct experience.

It sounds like you can fit into Reform just fine, though it would be better if you had a good rabbi or a "buddy" who will help you find answers to questions and argue with you and stuff. Have you had a conversation with the rabbi you mentioned, the one who started keeping kosher at 60? I'll bet he's got a fascinating story to tell -- ask him about it. He'll probably be happy to tell you about it, and to encourage you to remain active as well.

I've experienced religious prejudice all my life and it seems that my response to it has been to become far more religious. Does this seem strange?

Not strange at all. There are two canonical responses to bullying: to cave in, and to become even more firm in one's position. You did the latter. Good for you!

I'm curious as to why you became more religious (those sandwiches sound strange and like something my mom would love.)

I'm a convert. There's a long story behind that but, basically, I was a seeker (not converting for marriage etc). I'm here because I believe this is the right place for me to be.

Interesting. I've heard this from a couple far-right Jews, who were disparing those less observant, and I've heard it, oddly, from secular Jews, who I guess are embarrassed by their Jewishness or something and want to point out that the friend/family member/whatever is really just like all other Americans. Some in the latter category say such things about themselves, too. (I don't want to speak lashon hara here, but let's just say I married into some of this -- fortunately, not immediate relatives.)

Ah. Thanks for your thoughtful answers.
Actually, the older Rabbi retired and the current one is fantastic, the best, most interesting and thoroughly educated Rabbi I've ever met. I've been back at school (changing careers, partly due to my fibromyalgia) for several years, while caring for my kids and my parents so spending time with the Rabbi has been impossible. He offers many programs and classes I'd love but.....I just can squeeze in even one more thing. (Also, the prior Rabbi wouldn't have been open to the kind of discussion you suggest; the current one most definitely would.)
I believe you are right about the parental conflict and I will approach it as such.
I do have some issues with all the "classifying" that goes on in my Jewish community. I've been told, directly and indirectly, but ultra-Orthodox Jews that I'm not a "real" Jew and I tend to only be a little disturbed by the Protestantized/secularized Reform Jews amongst whom I was raised. My disturbance is rooted in their reaction to my return to traditions, not me scorning them (because I don't do that. It's something they infer but which I do not imply. I just realized that by having this discussion. Thanks.)
Much to think about as my daughter's Bat Mitzvah approaches. I do remind myself that if we were Orthodox, her life would be very different right now.
And she brought up "The Passion" tonight at dinner.......

I'm pretty sure there's a denomination called "Liberal Catholic". I don't know much about it other than that they let priests marry. (I first heard about it from a single frined who referred to his brother-in-law the priest.) Maybe that's worth investigating?

Thank you. Those sound like interesting programs. In my copious free time with my copious lottery winnings... :-)

In my copious free time with my copious lottery winnings
Alas, this is so true. I, personally, find that I either have the time to do stuff or the money to do stuff, but rarely both. (At least on the "gee, why don't I spend 3-12 months doing X" level.)

While these programs probably have shorter than year-long programs, and probably have some amount of financial aid, there's still the time/money problem... plus the fact that you have a life in Pittsburgh that you can't just drop.

The people I've talked to seem completely unable to comprehend that someone might willingly choose to keep kosher or walk to shul or the like.

I'm not at all surprised. Most people just don't understand the value of formalism as a means of understanding a subject more deeply.

As an analogy, the same is true of poetry. Most folks don't grok why you would want to work in sonnet form, with all its restrictions on rhyme and meter. But many serious poets love they way it helps you focus, and really understand your writing better.

This is also true of dance -- most people don't understand the appeal of doing dance carefully and precisely in the SCA's social context, but the hardcore dance geeks love it. Indeed, it's probably true of most forms of human endeavor.

The issue seems to be depth. People who are into a subject deeply are often strongly attracted to formalisms, as a way of helping focus on that subject and in some sense to do it "well". This is often mysterious to those who are relatively shallowly into the subject, who don't understand why you would go to so much effort for an unnecessary straightjacket.

Good point. I had realized that the formality of mitzvot does help me to focus, but I hadn't generalized it to other endeavors. But you're right; it's true of lots of things.

I don't write poetry, but the poetry I don't write is sonnets and sestinas and stuff, not "free verse". :-)

I am Orthodox. I would say 90% of my congregation would agree that you are either Jewish or you're not.

Just out of curiosity (and not meaning to start anything...I could ask you this in person, it's just this is more convenient right now), would those same 90% only recognize Orthodox conversions? I mean, I know the Rabbi told me that my conversion, since it was Conservative, would not be recognized by Orthodox Rabbis (nor would my children be recognized as Jewish). I pretty much took this to include most members of Orthodox congregations as well. But I suppose, as with most things, you can't exactly generalize it.

It's something I don't specifically discuss with Orthodox congregants. I do know some Orthodox Jews who have a "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy, some who just don't care what kind of conversion, and some who accept any conversion with a mikveh. But yes, I would say that the vast majority of Orthodox Jews that I know that contemplate the question only recognize Orthodox conversions. This is not a reflection on the individual, but rather on the differences in theology.

I am neither endorsing nor disagreeing with this policy. I hope that I don't get flamed for this, but if I do, so be it.

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interviewed by cecerose

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