cellio | public service announcement

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halacha,
pesach

public service announcement

When Streit's writes, on the package of egg matzah (which is much tastier than the plain sort), "egg matzos may be eaten only by the infirm, aged or children according to Shulchan Aruch", what they mean is "...in order to fulfill the obligation at the seder specifically". Why they don't say that is beyond me. It confused me the first year I was paying attention (so I asked), and I was just reminded of it by the box of matzah sitting on my desk here at work. (The rest of the week you don't have to eat matzah at all if you don't want to; you just have to not eat chametz.)

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My understanding is that able-bodied Jewish adults can't eat egg matzah over Passover, period. If my understanding turns out to be incorrect, my wife will be very happy....

According to some authorities, yes. Neither my wife's family nor mine follows that ruling.

Near as I can tell, no one argues that it's chametz -- which is consistent with the (apparently-undisputed) "kosher l'pesach" labelling. So if chametz is forbidden and non-chametz is permitted (and it's also not kitniyot), we'd have to be talking about a third category of forbidden non-chametz.

It looks like the ban on egg matzah is primarily about a concern that maybe some water got in with the fruit juice, which introduces the possibility that it was leavened. (Flour combined with fruit juice doesn't leaven; it rots.) If there's a possibility of water, though, then shouldn't its (Pesach) kashrut in general be in question? I mean, no one is permitted to eat chametz or even things that resemble chametz (kitniyot). This doesn't seem to be that.

I'll have to dig through my files at home; I remember asking and getting an answer that it was ok for me to eat this, but I no longer remember the details (including who I asked -- might have been my own rabbi depending on when I asked, in which case it was probably verbal and there's no paper/bit trail to examine).

If anyone else reading this has light to shed on the subject, please jump in.

It's a Passover food-related restriction. It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be traditional. :-)

Well, hold on there a sec.

If you're Sephardic, kitniyot is fine. Kitniyot is not chametz, nor is it a "resembles eating ham" deal. The problem is that kitniyot were once stored in the same places as grains, and it's impossible to separate the two afterwards.

Since the Sephardim always kept their lentils and such in different places from their grains, they never had the problem. Now it's just a tradition for the Ashkenazi.

Sorry for the confusion. I know that kitniyot is a special category between chametz and ok (for Ashkenazim, as you point out). Egg matzah doesn't seem to be a member of that category, and I hadn't previously heard of another in-between category that applies broadly. (There's also the no-matzah-and-liquid restriction, which I've forgotten the name of, but that's a small minority, I'm told.)

Our associate rabbi actually argues that today we should not restrict kitniyot, and he eats it personally. I haven't asked my rabbi (who is the senior rabbi) for his opinion. I currently take the approach of keeping kitniyot out of my kitchen (so I'm not limited in who I can feed) but not personally worrying if someone else feeds it to me. Maybe I'm just a wuss, trying to walk a middle ground like that. I mean really, I tend to agree that kitniyot is an unnecessary restriction, but on the other hand, it's only a week and is it really a big deal?

Interesting. I, too, had heard that the kitniyot restriction was because of resembling leavening.

I'm still avoiding kitniyot this year except for peanuts and soy products, because I am a wreck without my morning protein shake and I need to be firing on all burners for my early morning classes. But I've been feeling a tad guilty about it, because I always assumed that if you're going to personally feel like you were delivered from a difficult situation, then Pesach has to be a little difficult (and if it bugs you, you're supposed to remind yourself that at least you're not in slavery--to put your troubles in perspective). So by that logic I'm *supposed* to have trouble finding an alternate breakfast so I can feel happier after Pesach is over.

There's also the no-matzah-and-liquid restriction, which I've forgotten the name of, but that's a small minority, I'm told

It's called gebrachts. I don't know that I'd call it a "small" minority, aside from the fact that it's slightly redundant to say. I think that the Chasiddische community is a substantial enough population to avoid stressing "small".

I thought it was a subset of the Chassidic community, but apparently I erred. I apologize. Certainly the word "small" is inappropriate for the Chassidic community in general.

I think that a large majority of Chassidim (and at least a few Orthodox sects) hold to no gebrachts.
It's a large enough minority that there are plenty of products labeled as "non-gebrachts", which is telling, I think.

Lubavitchers are the most commonly known for not eating gebrachts, I think (though they will on the eighth night).

It's a large enough minority that there are plenty of products labeled as "non-gebrachts", which is telling, I think.

Yes, that is telling. I don't think I've ever seen that notation, though it's probably a function of the kinds of food I buy. (I don't buy a lot of matzah-based products like cakes, cookies, and cereals.)

So far as I know, the issue doesn't have to do with whether the matzah came in contact with water. It's not a universal custom to avoid contact between matzah and water after the baking process (e.g., making matzah balls or using cake meal or just plain getting the matzah wet). That seems to be mostly a Chasidishe minhag.

I think -- don't quote me on this, but I think -- the concern is making sure the matzah is equivalent to bread. To qualify, it has to be a mixture of flour and mostly water. With egg matzah or juice matzah, eggs or juice provide the majority of the moisture for the dough, not water.

Thanks for the help.

So far as I know, the issue doesn't have to do with whether the matzah came in contact with water.

I meant during the preparation -- before it's matzah. A cursory glance at web-available sources suggests at at least some decisors were concerned that the juice might not be purely juice but might also contain a drop of water (and a single drop is apparently no differently halachically from all water).

Some people also have a custom of not eating (finished) matzah that has come into contact with liquid (so no matzahbrie for them, I guess). That's not what I meant here; sorry for the confusion.

I think -- don't quote me on this, but I think -- the concern is making sure the matzah is equivalent to bread.

That makes sense for the seder, where we say motzi (not mezunot). I'm not sure how that applies for the rest of the week, though, so long as you know what you're eating and which bracha to say.

Hmmm. I don't quite get the drop-of-water-in-juice bit -- as long as it's all cooked within 18 minutes, why would it be a problem. Maybe it takes longer to make egg or juice matzah. I dunno.

I don't think -- once again, don't quote me on this -- that this is a big deal at any time but seder night. You aren't supposed to eat matzah during the day that leads up to seder night (at a minumum -- some people have a custom to wait as long as a month prior to Pesach). But if you have a baby/small child who's hungry or are taking care of a sick elderly person who's hungry, you can feed them egg or juice matzah prior to the seder if that's all you have. (It's supposed to be easier on the stomach than matzah and therefore more suitable for babies and sick people.) I think you can eat it whenever you want for the rest of the week.

I don't quite get the drop-of-water-in-juice bit -- as long as it's all cooked within 18 minutes, why would it be a problem.

Ditto.

I think you can eat it whenever you want for the rest of the week.

That's my assertion (and someone gave me such a ruling once), but apparently some Ashkenazi sources actually say no egg matzah at all unless you're sick/old/a child. I'm having trouble understanding why, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking at it.

So, when it's not Passover, if I decide to make bread that features milk as the main liquid instead of water, does that bread take a mitzonos bracha instead of a hamotzi?

This kind of bread (usually made with fruit juice as the water-substitute, instead of milk) is called a mezonot roll. As the name suggests, some rabbis say that you would indeed make mezonot over such a roll, rather than hamotzi. As the articles you can read by following the link suggests, this is a controversial opinion.

Yes. However, there is a halachic ruling stating that one shouldn't make bread with milk unless it's made in a conspicuously different shape from regular bread to avoid the possibility that someone will assume it's parve and eat it with meat. The topic is discussed on this page.

As the others said, yes but it's controversial (and milk-based bread should look different). Back when they actually served meals on airlines, sometimes the kosher meals came with mezunot rolls (labelled as such) to save you the hassle of hand-washing before bread on an airplane. So you got something bread-like with your meal but without the halachic hassle of actual bread.

So you got something bread-like with your meal but without the halachic hassle of actual bread.

Except sometimes they didn't. I got a note once with my meal, saying the caterer wanted to give a mezunot roll, but the O-U thought that people should say the full benching after the meal anyhow, so the O-U forbade the caterer from giving a mezunot roll, and they (the caterers) were terribly sorry, but the rolls were real bread rolls. They suggested that if people didn't want to (or couldn't) get up to wash beforehand, that they not eat the rolls.

I really wish I'd saved the note.

I see this whole issue with Egg matzah as another example of the O-U using their power to take a small, uncommon practice (not eating egg matzah at all during passover) and trying to force it on the greater Jewish community. Well, my custom is, whenever eating egg matzah on passover, to say, "My, I feel particularly middle-aged and healthy today!"

>> I see this whole issue with Egg matzah as another example of the O-U using their power to take a small, uncommon practice

Uh ... I don't get it. Not least because the OU is hardly the only company that certifies egg matzah as kosher l'Pesach ... If you ask me, the confusion stems from the fact that the wording on the box comes off as odd (and certainly non-specific about when eating egg matzah is an issue). Yeah, people do have different customs about this. But ... the mighty super-powerful meanies at the OU, running around the country and shaming people out of not eating egg matzah? I just can't see it. Besides, why would you make halachic decisions based on a cardboard box? I would think family minhag or a rav's advice would be more important.

Gosh, when you put it that way, it sounds a bit paranoid. Perhaps I was over-reacting. Or maybe they are all really out to get me :-)

So an interesting question is this: do the non-OU egg matzahs have the same wording? Because I've seen identical wording on egg matzah from different companies, with the only connection being that they were certified by the OU, which makes me think that they (the OU) are responsible for the wording. No company in their right mind would print something that confusing on the box of something they're trying to sell.

Besides, why would you make halachic decisions based on a cardboard box? I would think family minhag or a rav's advice would be more important.

Well, I would never do that. Nor, apparently, would you. But there are a lot of people whose family minhag is to eat whatever, and who find it much easier to just figure that the OU knows what they're talking about. Or who think that it's always better to be stricter. Or who don't have a local rav they trust as much as the esteemed folks at OU.

So an interesting question is this: do the non-OU egg matzahs have the same wording?

The package from which I was quoting was certified by Kof-K.

Well, I checked with our rabbi (who is also the head of the local Vaad ha-Rabbonim"), and he confirmed that able-bodied adults shouldn't eat egg matzah on Passover at all. I asked why, and he said "because people might get confused". Rabbi Morris Ayin strikes again!

Have a good holiday, nevertheless....

Rabbi Morris Ayin strikes again!

Sounds like! Thanks for the info. Since my egg matzah stays in the cardboard box with two-inch-high letters saying "egg matzah", while the regular stuff gets to migrate to the plastic box on the table, I'm not too worried about confusion. Besides, their color, weight, and softness are all different from the regular stuff, so even if I had a piece of random matzah away from all packaging, I'd be able to tell you which it is.

Chag sameach to you too!

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