KfP "beer"

[cellio]

In the "this is just wrong" category: kosher-for-Passover beer (forwarded to me by ralphmelton). Someone else on my friends list (arib, maybe?) spotted something like this (probably this) in a store but couldn't bring himself to investigate, if I recall correctly. I thought at the time that it was a labelling error or a local thing, but I guess not.

I'm not a big beer drinker and don't feel overly constrained by that aspect of Pesach, but I would buy a single bottle out of curiosity were that an option. Not an entire case, though.

Comments

[amergina.livejournal.com]

There's a place in wexford that was advertising Kosher for Passover teas.

...

? I mean, tea is dried leaves, right? what would make normal tea not Kosher (for Passover)?

[cellio]

That does seem odd. There's a general principle of buying new packages of foods that aren't inherently non-kosher for Pesach, on the theory that you don't know what's come into contact with your opened ones, but I don't see that applying to boxes of individually-wrapped tea bags -- and even if it did, all you'd need to do is buy a new box. (The risk is more significant with, say, a tub of cream cheese -- did you previously spread some from that tub on a bagel? If so, did you get crumbs into the container when you returned the knife for a second glob?)

Ok, so I'm confused about the tea. I can't think of any kind of leaf that shows up in tea that would be inherently non-kosher for Pesach. Maybe one of my other readers can help?

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Plain tea - untreated, unflavored tea leaves themselves, stuck into a tea ball - are almost definitely inherently kosher (though due to a fear that they might have come into contact something non-kosher, they almost always are hechshered - given kosher certification). The complications arise when the leaves get treated. The process of decaffeination, for instance, can include non-kosher or non-kosher-for-Passover substances; the flavorings added to flavor the teas (and here I'm talking about flavored black tea, not herbals) can also be derived from ingredients that include kitniyot or other things that render them unusable on Passover or unkosher altogether.

Hope that helps.

[cellio]

Ah, thanks. I hadn't considered additives.

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

I know that some varieties of teas are fermented--would that make them non-kosher? (My guess is not, given the possibilities of wine and pseudo-beer.)

[cellio]

I guess it would depend on how they induce fermentation. If it involves yeast, it would have to be yeast that didn't originate with grains -- which is certainly possible, but you'd have to check.

(Gee, I'm learning all sorts of things about tea. Fermentation? Who'd've thought?)

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

I googled a bit, without much luck. This page (http://www.kaburagien.co.jp/museum/english/museum/museum7.php) says that black tea is fermented, oolong is semi-fermented, and green tea is not fermented.

http://www.celestialseasonings.com/research/general/kosher_6.php claims that a number of Celestial Seasonings teas are certified kosher, but not kosher for Passover. No explanation of why not--perhaps they just didn't pay extra for that certification. (Even their green teas are not certified kosher for Passover, for whatever that might be worth.)

http://www.bigelowtea.com/help/faqdetail.cfm?faq=19 claims that sixteen of Bigelow's Classic Teas are kosher, which is interesting because their website lists 19 varieties of Classic Teas. I didn't do the extra step of identifying which three weren't listed, but I didn't notice a "Bacon and Cheese" flavor of tea in the list.

http://www.globetrends.com/KosherTeas.htm claims a bunch of their teas to be kosher for Passover, including some fully fermented varieties. Given this, I think that my speculation about fermentation was inaccurate. Unless the answer is "paid for stronger certification", your guess is as good as mine.

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

I'm still googling.

I found this page (http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-thirst-coffee.htm) on the issues of kosher coffee. (One process for decaffeinating coffee yields non-KfP coffee.)

(I have to say that http://www.star-k.com/cons-kash-articles.htm is pretty fascinating to me as an outsider. I get to read about the issues of Shabbos north of the arctic circle, or when traveling across the International Date Line, and find out how to kasher a 4-story water tank.)

Aha! http://www.star-k.com/kashrus/kk-passover-problem.htm is titled "But what could be the problem with...", and covers coffee and tea. The possible problems are with decaffeinated or flavored teas, or with instant tea. (Apparently not all matzoh is KfP either, though it doesn't detail the failures.

[goljerp]

Apparently not all matzoh is KfP either, though it doesn't detail the failures.

That's easy. If the process from when water touches the flour to finished baking takes longer than 18 minutes (or is it 18.5?), then it's not kosher for passover.

Also, you'd need the oven, preparation area, tools, etc. to be KfP as well.

As far as teas, I think the short answer is: Jews are crazy all the time, and passover makes them more so. A friend of mine who is a therapist thinks that Jews invented OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder).

[cellio]

Wow, thanks for the fascinating links, particularly those last two! Nifty reading.

The Moadim U'Zmanim's opinion on Shabbat within the arctic circle -- that Shabbat lasts its usual amount of time but you just plain skip daytime-only (or night-time-only) mitzvot is novel. I also liked the off-handed "Shabbat in space -- consult your rav" advice. Should it become relevant, I'll be sure to do that. :-)

With non-kfP matzah, as goljerp said, there are issues with both production and equipment. I was surprised to hear that the market for matzah the rest of the year is big enough that it's worth them producing it anyway, but apparently so.

[juuro.livejournal.com]

Fermentation is used to convert green tea to black or brown. In teas, this is an intracellular enzyme process. Just crush the leaves a bit, crumble them into not-too-tight balls, and leave to ferment. No additives.

Of the flavourings I hazard no guess. I keep strict observance in that respect: any flavouring in tea is not permitted! ;)

[cellio]

Thanks!

I tend to take my tea unadulterated for the most part too, though I'm guessing there are probably flavorings involved in the fruit-based flavors (like orange). And I never seek out intentionally-decaffeinated beverages, though I'll sometimes drink ones that come that way on their own (e.g. some mint teas).

[jducoeur]

My initial reaction was that the idea was preposterous. What's really going on, though, is that they're simply playing semantic games, calling this "beer" so that it sells better. From the description, it's really just a hopped mead, and nowhere near as unusual as they claim it to be.

The only thing that's new and different about it is that no one has previously had the chutzpah to call such a thing "beer". Indeed, I'd argue that this violates truth-in-advertising laws, not that anyone cares enough to make a big deal about it...

[jducoeur]

All that said, I'm a shade surprised: I thought that anything involving yeast was out during Passover. Is the restriction actually only for grain products?

[cellio]

Yeast itself isn't the problem, else all wines would be out too. (I was confused by that at first too.) It's really about the five grains coming into contact with anything that might produce leavening, and about derivations from that principle (e.g. corn isn't one of the five grains but you still don't eat cornbread).

[goljerp]

I think that I was confused, too, in an earlier discussion... I was reading somewhere that there's kosher for passover baking powder. But baking soda couldn't be. Or something. I am confused...

[cellio]

From the description, it's really just a hopped mead, and nowhere near as unusual as they claim it to be.

Yup. I thought I remembered calling this a mead, but I guess that was in email because it's not here. Now that you mention it, though, our local brewers' guild made a hopped mead some years ago, and it was quite tasty. It was, however, also very strong -- we used the ultra-strong yeasties and I think came out around 13%. So there was a lot of honey in it to start, and that's going to affect the taste.

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

I didn't take a good look at the labels, once I realized that a six pack was selling for $25 or something at the Butcherie. :(

[cellio]

That's awfully steep for sampling, yes.

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

I actually got to taste this stuff a few days ago. It isn't bad -- smells very honey-ish but has just a hint of sweetness. The only thing I saw as a problem was that the flavor wasn't strong enough for my taste, but that could be just a me thing. Whatever the case, though, it didn't taste like beer.

Anyway, there's an article about the type I tried here.

[cellio]

Thanks for the article. I'm guessing that they're not using a large amount of honey, and the article says they fermented it for only a couple weeks, so its lack of strong flavor doesn't surprise me. In contrast, some of us once made a hopped mead with a lot of honey (double normal) and fermented it for several months, and it was both strongly flavored and strongly alcoholic. We had to get extra-strong yeast so it wouldn't drown in all that sugar at the beginning. :-) (This was an attempt to reconstruct a 14th-, or maybe 13th-, century recipe, by the way.)

[moose]

OK, I -really- gotta get new glasses.

Until I followed the link to the actual article, I thought you had written about "kosher for passover beef."

Oy?

[cellio]

Oops. I've made that kind of mistake at times; I think blaming the glasses is a fine idea. :-)