transliteration, cantorial stuff

[cellio]

We ended up talking a little bit about the Hebrew/English balance at services and the use of transliteration in the siddur. Some rabbis apparently hold the view that transliteration is a crutch that keeps people from actually learning Hebrew. I suspect that's not quite right.

I dislike reading from transliteration, and avoid it except when urgent even if it means I won't be able to say every word (due to being slow). On the other hand, when I was just starting to attend services and didn't know anything yet, I was really grateful to have it. I was able to use it to jump-start my participation, yet I did not lose my motivation to learn to read for real. I commented on this to my rabbi, who said something like "yeah, but you taught yourself trope too -- you're not typical". Actually, though, I suspect I am typical among that subset of the population that will learn to read anyway. It's just that most people will apparently settle for transliteration -- but if it weren't there they'd sit in silence, not say "gee, I'm not getting any help here; I better learn the language". Or so I theorize. (Data welcome.)

The real issue there, I guess, is that most people don't want to learn to read a foreign alphabet at speed. I'd rather give them some tools for participation than write them off. (And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure my rabbi shares that view. He's not the one who said transliteration should be eliminated.)

But I'd also be thrilled if I, personally, never had to rely on transliteration again. :-)

- - - - - - - -

In other news, I met with our cantorial soloist last night to discuss that service at the end of July. She is quite happy to have me doing most of the music, with other committee members doing some, and she said she would like to see more of this. So we'll be sort of a test case or something, to see how the congregation reacts. The subs are already mostly lined up for her maternity leave (which is going to be very short, because she wants to be back before the high holy days), but she pointed out that next summer there will be an opportunity to do more. No, she's not planning another kid (or if she is, she didn't share that information), but the congregation has managed to clear next summer of b'nei mitzvot, so services during the summer can be less formal and more experimental. (Next year's class is small, so we are taking the opportunity to do some sanctuary renovations.) I'd love to see more lay people being more involved in things like this.

We also talked about the trope class I want us to have in the fall or winter, and she's going to do what she can to make it happen. The lines of responsibility are a little fuzzy here, and we both want to make sure it doesn't fall through the cracks.

Comments

[mishtaneh.livejournal.com]

I'm still relying on transliteration for some things (notably kaddish — I'm developing a feel for reading Hebrew a word at a time (instead of a letter) so I can read at speed, but that feel doesn't work with Aramaic) during services, but whenever possible I'm sticking to the actual Hebrew. Then again, I've started poking at trope a bit as well ("so I've figured out what some of those marks around the Sh'ma mean; how about the rest?") so I'm presumably not "typical" either. :)

On the other hand, I agree that those who aren't interested in learning to read Hebrew won't suddenly decide to learn it if the transliterations are eliminated.

[siderea]

I agree that removing the crutch will not cure the patient of lameness. :)

P.S.

[siderea]

But I disagree that they'd sit there in silence. They'd stop showing up.

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

As someone who went and learned a foreign character set, I feel I should have something significant to say to that point.

Perhaps it is this: a year of steady use will make it possible to read it reasonably. Especially if you repeat the same things over and over, then it shoudn't be too bad.

On the other hand, for real speed you need to be reading the words, not just the phonetics, and that would seem to necessitate study of the language.

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

I have always felt like I was cheating a little b/c I learned to read Hebrew years before I ever started learning for conversion. (I took 2 semesters of Israeli Hebrew in college, more or less on a whim.) I say "cheating" b/c I know so many people, JITs and born Jews alike, who struggled to learn Hebrew, whereas I didn't have much of a problem following in the siddur from the beginning. Don't mean to sound like I'm bragging -- I just got lucky since foreign languages are relatively easy for me.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

(Having taught Hebrew school for a handful of years, the last few using siddurim that had both Hebrew and the transliterations) Trnasliterations are a wonderful tool for including people who otherwise wouldn't know what to say because they're unable to read the text. The problem comes when someone is already learning to read Hebrew, but it takes a long time, and it's slow- so they stick to the transliterations, and often don't get the practice reading Hebrew that would get them to be able to read more quickly, because people's lives are busy, and setting up time to practice reading Hebrew can be dull. Transliteration may even motivate people to start to learn to read Hebrew, since they can see it right there, and they Know that they're only faking. But once they do- there needs to be some way to eventually take it away so the temptation doesn't get to them. And with 7th graders- it Needs to not be there, when you're trying to teach them to read Hebrew: most of them will peak and cheat.

[murmur311.livejournal.com]

I also dislike reading from the transliteration now that I can read the Hebrew- it really messes me up. I can follow all the prayers in Hebrew, and say probably 75% of them with the congregation (sometimes we move a little to fast and I have to either follow with my eyes and not my mouth or skip to the transliteration). I'm not really sure how many people in the congregation rely on the transliteration vs. people who can read Hebrew vs. people who have simply memorized the prayers over the years.

There are a number of people in Adult Hebrew at my temple who are there simply to be able to follow along during services (especially during the prayers where no transliteration is given), but that is their extent of wanting to know Hebrew. There've been disagreements in my own class with the rabbi about learning grammar and meanings; he wants us to be able to read the Torah and study Midrash, some just want the prayers and don't care what they are saying.

I think taking the transliteration would leave a lot of people disengaged with the service. I'm not sure having the transliteration discourages people from actually learning Hebrew; I think if they really want to learn they will. But there are some people who honestly don't want to. The service has to be welcoming to everyone, not just those fluent in Hebrew. Which is not to say that we should cater to the lowest common denominator, it's finding a middle ground that is important.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

When it comes to things like this, everyone is different. As soon as I could sound out the Hebrew words, I stopped using transliterations. However, when I daavened, I daavened in English. At that point, it was more important to me that I knew what I was saying than I used the "right" language. (Also, of course, I didn't lead daavening and that one is permitted to pray in any language one understands as well as Hebrew.)

Eventually, I found the English to be a crutch, so I started praying out of an all-Hebrew siddur. I'm not saying I understand each word, but I'm now familiar enough with the prayers that I know what I am saying.

But that's *my* developement and needs. There is no one right way in this case.

[hopeness.livejournal.com]

I had already started to learn to read Hebrew before I began studying with my Rabbi. The first time I went to shul the president was all excited because they had just gotten these like, uber-transliteration siddurs in. My Rabbi said I wasn't "allowed" to have one, and I have to thank him for that, because I think it made my Hebrew reading skills stronger. I'm not fast enough out loud yet, but "in-loud" I can usually keep up with the cantor.
Now I find transliteration slightly frustrating because usually it isn't very good (in my opinion, anyways). However, in a pinch, it can help me find my place if I get lost.

I'm not sure how I would feel if I wasn't so determined to learn Hebrew. I'd probably appreciate the transliterations. I had a lot in my favour for learning to read; I like languages, I like learning, and I love singing in other languages. Adon Olam was the first thing I learned to read and sing. Actually, the first thing I learned to sing was Shalom Aleichem, but that was by rote.

[goljerp]

Hmm... Transliteration...

I'm lousy at fern languages[1]. I can sound out unfamiliar hebrew words, very slowly. Sloowwwlly. My vocabulary is very limited. Calling myself functionally illiterate in Hebrew would be generous.

However, as lousy as I am at languages, my brain remembers songs. So if you were sitting next to me at my shul, you might not realize my hebrew is so bad, because I'd be singing with the congregation and participating. I use the Hebrew in the siddur, but mainly as a reminder - I'm not reading the words so much as using them to remember what I've already memorized. So I can pick up a different siddur and not get totally lost.

I can use tranliterations in the same way. I also find the transliterations helpful for things which I don't say often enough to have memorized (like the holiday additions to benching, for example). So I'm in favor of 'em.

[1] I don't include things like Java, FORTRAN, Basic, SQL, etc. as foreign languages. I'm good at using those, but that's really a different skill.