short takes

[cellio]

I have a theory about meetings at my company. For any meeting that does not involve food or take place in a room with too few chairs, assume the offset from the scheduled meeting time is is 2 minutes plus 1 minute per attendee (in the late direction, of course). This actually seems to track with my previous few companies, too.

Cheat out, an essay that siderea wrote about one particular SCA group, has a lot of application in other groups, SCA and non-.

This explanation of "shabbos goy" made me giggle in places but is basically right (link via almeda).

A while ago I wrote about the contrast in attitudes between two (I thought) 80-something women in my congregation. Last Shabbat I learned two surprising things: the one with the great outlook on life, who seems young (despite having lost her husband of 65 years not long ago), just turned 93 -- and the cranky shrew for whom nothing is ever good enough, who seems "old", is only in her mid-70s. What a difference attitude makes!

Comments

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

o/~ Please push that button
Shabbos goy, please push that button o/~

[cellio]

I'll only push it if you grant up front that there are many, many problems with the idea and we'd all be better off if the idea had been lost to time. :-)

[siderea]

What a difference attitude makes

About 20 years. :)

[hopeness.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I enjoyed reading that. I have always been relieved that I never fell under the distinction of "shabbos goy" prior to being really interested in converting. My biggest problem with the idea is that one of B's cousins reasoned that since their son was under 3, letting him push the elevator button was okay. I understand why they don't believe his "formal" religious training should begin before age three, but I find it hypocritical. And on a practical note, have you ever tried telling a toddler they can't do something anymore that they've become accustomed to doing? Yikes.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

Glad you enjoyed it. Every so often, I run smack against the fact that being curious about other cultures is not always the norm. (I've had to explain Ramadan and the Feast of Epiphany, too. Oy! My head.)

[goljerp]

I agree with you in principle, but still...

Judiasm doesn't hold a child really responsible for their actions until they're an "adult" (12/13). So children are really exempt from a lot of the rules. For example, I can't imagine someone forcing a child -- especially younger than three -- to fast. Now, to be sure, the children should be encouraged to follow as much as possible. From this, it makes a certain amount of sense to say the under-three year old can press the button.

[cellio]

There is a fuzzy middle ground sometimes. When I was a gentile and pretty clueless about these things, I once shared a hotel room at a convention with observant Jews who explained the restrictions to me. (A condition of my staying in the room was that I not touch the bathroom light. :-) ) There was this guessing game of me trying to be helpful and them trying to not direct me -- because if it's wrong to do, it's also wrong to ask someone to do (on Shabbat, at the very least).

Now that I'm on the other end of it occasionally, I find that the easiest thing to do is to make very clear what my actual requirements are (like that bathroom light) and, other than that, tell people they should do what they want for themselves and not worry about me.

[cellio]

I've been told that it's common to have kids build up to fasting gradually. You don't want to just hit them with it when they turn 13. So you gradually take a little more away each year so they're close at 12 and can take the final step the next year. (Disclaimer: I don't have kids and I didn't do this as a kid...)

For the elevator light, I guess I would draw the line between "kids like to play with things" and "deliberately doing something that Mom can't do herself". I wouldn't want to encourage the latter, because it'll be harder to break later. On the other hand, kids will be kids and I wouldn't yell at the kid for pressing the button. As he gets older I'd teach him why he shouldn't do that, and for something as simple as lights I'd be pushing him toward better behavior long before age 13.

[cellio]

Every so often, I run smack against the fact that being curious about other cultures is not always the norm.

I hear you! Lots of people seem to believe that you only need to know the things that are relevant to you. What a sad way to live -- yeah, maybe that's all I need to know, but the world is a big place and I'd like to know more about it!

[hopeness.livejournal.com]

I can see your point that there is "wiggle room". Obviously there are some things that children shouldn't be expected to do or made to do. I just think that consistency is key when trying to instill something in one's children, regardless.

[zare-k.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I was talking with someone about all the places I want to travel to, and they said (more or less) "Why bother? There's plenty of interesting stuff here in the US". Eia.

[goljerp]

I just think that consistency is key when trying to instill something in one's children, regardless.

This is a good point. It can be tough, but it is important to be consistant with children.

[goljerp]

Fasting: I don't remember fasting on Yom Kippur as a child. I have a memory of being in the kitchen after services on Yom Kippur (i.e. in the afternoon), and my father being in the living room (which we didn't use that often). I wanted to go over to him, but my mom said something like "Don't bother him; he's fasting and it's very difficult for him". The first time I fasted the whole day was in college...

The elevator light... Makes me think of my friends Marcus and Ruth, who are observant and live on the 11th floor of a building. Their sons really love pressing the buttons, and on weekdays Marcus will make a big deal about it ("Gabbi, time to press the button! What a great job!") So on Saturday, naturally, Gabbi wants to press it "like normal". It's dealing with situations like this that can be tough...

[goljerp]

I'm in a similar situation.

When I'm in a situation where I'm spending Shabbat with non-Jews (or non-observant Jews), what I do is this: using timers/leaving lights on/night lights, I set up the space so that there's enough light for me. Then I tell them not to disturb what I've set up, but to do whatever they like with the lights, as if I were not there. So the basic rule of "turn off the light when you leave a room" applies, even if I'm still in the room. If they happen to turn on a light for themselves and I use it too, fine... as long as they're not doing it just for me.

On the other hand, things are more sticky at Shul. There's a shabbos elevator there (stops at pre-programmed floors without human intervention), and I'll take that. If it isn't stopping at a floor, I don't have a problem climbing stairs... the problem is, there are people in my shul who do have a problem with the stairs. So there have been times where I've had to tell the non-Jewish shul staff that, say, the elevator isn't stopping on the 4th floor, but it needs to.

[cellio]

So there have been times where I've had to tell the non-Jewish shul staff that, say, the elevator isn't stopping on the 4th floor, but it needs to.

That's awkward, yes. Have they not developed the sensitivity to subtle clues like "Mrs. Rosenburg -- you know, the lady in the wheelchair -- can't get to the fourth floor"?

[goljerp]

That's awkward, yes. Have they not developed the sensitivity to subtle clues like "Mrs. Rosenburg -- you know, the lady in the wheelchair -- can't get to the fourth floor"?

I don't know. My approach has been to state the problem: "The elevator isn't stopping on the fourth floor." The fact that they then decide to tinker with it, rather than pursuing another course of activity, like moving the activities on the 4th floor to the 3rd (where it is stopping) is then their business...

I guess I could try being more subtle next time this happens.

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

the one with the great outlook on life, who seems young (despite having lost her husband of 65 years not long ago), just turned 93 -- and the cranky shrew for whom nothing is ever good enough, who seems "old", is only in her mid-70s. What a difference attitude makes!

Or genetics. There are chemical causes for aging, and there are a few chemical causes of crankiness, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they're related.