Shabbat (comparative religion, mostly)

[cellio]

Our associate rabbi just came back last week from a month-long training program for chaplains in the air force, and he had a lot to say about that (both last night and this morning). He was, not surprisingly, the only rabbi in their group of 30. There were two priests and the rest were assorted Protestant ministers. Quite a mix, he said.

At torah study we talked about the direct contact that Moshe had with God (when God would descend on the mishkan and speak to him). The rabbi pointed out that we tend to not make a big deal about this -- "oh yeah, God talked to Moshe" as opposed to getting excited about it. Why are we so blase about it? The Christians he spent the last month would have been all over that sort of thing with excitement, he said. (I pointed out that compared to the revelation at Sinai, this is less dramatic. It doesn't happen out in public and it doesn't involve the whole people. We tend to focus on the immanance and pure power of that moment with the whole people.)

This led to a discussion of the transcendant versus immanent God, with my rabbi speculating that the Christians he's met seem to be much more focused on an immanent God, while he (personally) is more comfortable with a transcendant God. (Yes, of course it's some of each, but different people are comfortable with different divisions.) Most of the Christians in his group were happy to talk about their direct, personal relationships with God; most Jews, in his experience, are uncomfortable doing that. (We might or might not have such relationships, but we don't tend so much to talk about them.)

I think there is a structural issue there, at least when you talk about lay people. (Not so much clergy, I hope.) Christianity is a religion, and if you're part of the community it's because you're part of the religion. You can assume a high degree of agreement on basic theological principles. But Judaism is also a people, and there are quite a few people who identify as Jewish but don't believe in God, or don't share your understanding of what God wants or how to relate to him. They are part of the community for other reasons. So if you find yourself talking theology with the guy sitting next to you at the annual meeting, the odds are somewhat lower that you'll share core beliefs, especially in liberal congregations. In other words, the density of religious feeling in the congregation is lower.

When it came time for the ice-breaker question in the service, he asked us to share a significant religious moment from our childhoods. (He initially said a Jewish moment, then realized not everyone grew up Jewish.) People talked about all sorts of things -- seders, other family moments, b'nei mitzvah, camp, and other things. I said something to the effect that all of my significant religious experiences from childhood were negative so I wouldn't talk about those, but that the talmud states that a convert is like a newborn so I'm free to talk about anything Jewish. This got a big laugh, and when I was done the rabbi said something like "we'll all be here for you to help you through your adolescence; these are difficult years, but I'm sure you'll pull through". It's nice to have a rabbi with a sense of humor. :-) By the way, I talked about reading torah -- and it was actually the second time I read, not the first, that I really, really felt a connection with it.

Pacing is not one of the associate rabbi's strengths, so when he left at a bit after 10, we were just getting to Barchu. (Usually we start the torah service around 10:15.) I took over the service and tried to expedite, choosing shorter melodies and skipping optional readings and stuff like that, but we were still running pretty late. (It's hard to make up that much time in kriat shema and t'filah, after all.) Unfortunately, this week's torah reader didn't realize that we were running so late, so she didn't abbreviate the d'var she'd prepared or otherwise expedite. She was also kind of nervous, and seeing people leave partway through her part of the service probably didn't help. I feel for her. I talked with her some after the service, but I also need to send a note to the mailing list about tricks for keeping a service on track. I'm not perfect either, of course, but I seem to have picked up some hints by observing my rabbi. And maybe I need to get a clock for the room.

Comments

[hobbitblue.livejournal.com]

I dont comment much on your religious posts tho I do tend to read them avidly and with interest... can you very briefly point out what you mean by transcendant and immanent God as it seems quite a key concept to understanding and I'm a bit hazy, and would rather ask you than go and google.

[goljerp]

we were still running pretty late. [....] seeing people leave partway through her part of the service

This is something that comes up at my minyan all the time: people are always complaining that we run late, and trying to come up with ideas about how we can "end earlier". (And, of course, people leaving early.)

I guess one problem is that we start at 10am, and it's just not possible to do everything we do and end much before noon, unless the daveners go at warp speed and the Torah reader chants faster than normal people can read English. We're usually done between 12:30 and 12:45, though, so when I make plans with friends I factor this in. It's mainly the people who are new to the minyan who don't realize this and who end up slipping out during Musaf.

I don't know. Most of the time, I don't have anyone invited over for lunch (other than Joy, whom I now presume to be eating lunch at my place unless otherwise informed :-), and we don't have lunch plans elsewhere, and so there's no particular hurry to be anyplace after services... so it doesn't really impact me if things go late. Or else we're going to a Minyan picnic or something, which by definition starts after services. Sure, I'd get a bit hungry if services went until 2pm, but otherwise I wouldn't care.

[freethinkernj.livejournal.com]

I think I have a slight issue with a few of the statements in your post. I don't have an issue with YOU of course! LOL. And the comments you made may not be your actual beliefs. But nevertheless...

First, Christianity (not the denominations) actually is not a religion per se in the way that most people think of religions. It's more of a belief than a religion. Actually it is simply an extension or 'fulfillment' of Judaism (for some). If you follow it logically, the first Christians were Jews who believed that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah while other Jews rejected him. So they didn't actually create a new religion. To them, Jesus was the fulfillment of their Jewish tradition and prophecies. They never ceased to be Jews. Right or wrong, that is what they believed. So in essence they didn't start a new religion. To them, they just completed their already existent Judaism.

Second. I have a VERY hard time understanding or accepting a Jew who does not believe in God. What their view of God is one thing (immanent, transcendent, etc). But to flat out say they don't believe in Him while claiming to be Jewish is impossible. When one says (and most Jews say this) that Judaism is a people, that is true to a certain extent. But it can't possibly be exclusive to a belief in God. If one claims to be Jewish or 'a people' without believing in God, we must ask him where does he think his 'people' came from? Does he believe they were just a group of slaves who left Egypt and settled in their own land (we can't call it the Holy Land then since they don't believe in God)? Why bother calling yourself Jewish at all? Judaism is a people AND a religion. They can not be separated. If you reject the divine, then you are merely German or Polish or Russian or whatever. And if that is the case, why bother with the Holy Days and rituals and B'nai Mitzvot and so on? To participate in those traditions while ignoring their divine origins is extremely hypocritical. I truly believe that a born Jew who denies the existence of God is actually denying his Judaism and is merely following his family's tradition and nothing more. He has forfeited the right to call himself Jewish. Remember, the first Jew, Abraham, was a convert so-to-speak. He was not 'born Jewish'. Ruth, who the great King David was a descendant of was a convert. She was not born Jewish. In my eyes, Judaism is just as conscious a choice as any other religion. If you don't claim it for yourself with God as the centerpiece in your life, whether you are born into it or choose it later, you forfeit it.

Please don't take these comments as judgmental. They truly are not meant to be. I just get tired of hearing Jew after Jew defiantly claim they are Jewish while denying God. I wonder what God would think of that?