Shabbat (comparative religion, mostly)
Aug. 28th, 2004 11:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cellioAt torah study we talked about the direct contact that Moshe had with God (when God would descend on the mishkan and speak to him). The rabbi pointed out that we tend to not make a big deal about this -- "oh yeah, God talked to Moshe" as opposed to getting excited about it. Why are we so blase about it? The Christians he spent the last month would have been all over that sort of thing with excitement, he said. (I pointed out that compared to the revelation at Sinai, this is less dramatic. It doesn't happen out in public and it doesn't involve the whole people. We tend to focus on the immanance and pure power of that moment with the whole people.)
This led to a discussion of the transcendant versus immanent God, with my rabbi speculating that the Christians he's met seem to be much more focused on an immanent God, while he (personally) is more comfortable with a transcendant God. (Yes, of course it's some of each, but different people are comfortable with different divisions.) Most of the Christians in his group were happy to talk about their direct, personal relationships with God; most Jews, in his experience, are uncomfortable doing that. (We might or might not have such relationships, but we don't tend so much to talk about them.)
I think there is a structural issue there, at least when you talk about lay people. (Not so much clergy, I hope.) Christianity is a religion, and if you're part of the community it's because you're part of the religion. You can assume a high degree of agreement on basic theological principles. But Judaism is also a people, and there are quite a few people who identify as Jewish but don't believe in God, or don't share your understanding of what God wants or how to relate to him. They are part of the community for other reasons. So if you find yourself talking theology with the guy sitting next to you at the annual meeting, the odds are somewhat lower that you'll share core beliefs, especially in liberal congregations. In other words, the density of religious feeling in the congregation is lower.
When it came time for the ice-breaker question in the service, he asked us to share a significant religious moment from our childhoods. (He initially said a Jewish moment, then realized not everyone grew up Jewish.) People talked about all sorts of things -- seders, other family moments, b'nei mitzvah, camp, and other things. I said something to the effect that all of my significant religious experiences from childhood were negative so I wouldn't talk about those, but that the talmud states that a convert is like a newborn so I'm free to talk about anything Jewish. This got a big laugh, and when I was done the rabbi said something like "we'll all be here for you to help you through your adolescence; these are difficult years, but I'm sure you'll pull through". It's nice to have a rabbi with a sense of humor. :-) By the way, I talked about reading torah -- and it was actually the second time I read, not the first, that I really, really felt a connection with it.
Pacing is not one of the associate rabbi's strengths, so when he left at a bit after 10, we were just getting to Barchu. (Usually we start the torah service around 10:15.) I took over the service and tried to expedite, choosing shorter melodies and skipping optional readings and stuff like that, but we were still running pretty late. (It's hard to make up that much time in kriat shema and t'filah, after all.) Unfortunately, this week's torah reader didn't realize that we were running so late, so she didn't abbreviate the d'var she'd prepared or otherwise expedite. She was also kind of nervous, and seeing people leave partway through her part of the service probably didn't help. I feel for her. I talked with her some after the service, but I also need to send a note to the mailing list about tricks for keeping a service on track. I'm not perfect either, of course, but I seem to have picked up some hints by observing my rabbi. And maybe I need to get a clock for the room.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-30 10:59 am (UTC)First, Christianity (not the denominations) actually is not a religion per se in the way that most people think of religions. It's more of a belief than a religion. Actually it is simply an extension or 'fulfillment' of Judaism (for some). If you follow it logically, the first Christians were Jews who believed that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah while other Jews rejected him. So they didn't actually create a new religion. To them, Jesus was the fulfillment of their Jewish tradition and prophecies. They never ceased to be Jews. Right or wrong, that is what they believed. So in essence they didn't start a new religion. To them, they just completed their already existent Judaism.
Second. I have a VERY hard time understanding or accepting a Jew who does not believe in God. What their view of God is one thing (immanent, transcendent, etc). But to flat out say they don't believe in Him while claiming to be Jewish is impossible. When one says (and most Jews say this) that Judaism is a people, that is true to a certain extent. But it can't possibly be exclusive to a belief in God. If one claims to be Jewish or 'a people' without believing in God, we must ask him where does he think his 'people' came from? Does he believe they were just a group of slaves who left Egypt and settled in their own land (we can't call it the Holy Land then since they don't believe in God)? Why bother calling yourself Jewish at all? Judaism is a people AND a religion. They can not be separated. If you reject the divine, then you are merely German or Polish or Russian or whatever. And if that is the case, why bother with the Holy Days and rituals and B'nai Mitzvot and so on? To participate in those traditions while ignoring their divine origins is extremely hypocritical. I truly believe that a born Jew who denies the existence of God is actually denying his Judaism and is merely following his family's tradition and nothing more. He has forfeited the right to call himself Jewish. Remember, the first Jew, Abraham, was a convert so-to-speak. He was not 'born Jewish'. Ruth, who the great King David was a descendant of was a convert. She was not born Jewish. In my eyes, Judaism is just as conscious a choice as any other religion. If you don't claim it for yourself with God as the centerpiece in your life, whether you are born into it or choose it later, you forfeit it.
Please don't take these comments as judgmental. They truly are not meant to be. I just get tired of hearing Jew after Jew defiantly claim they are Jewish while denying God. I wonder what God would think of that?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-30 08:09 pm (UTC)It's more of a belief than a religion.
I'm failing to see the distinction you're making; can you elaborate? I think of a religion as a set of practices that's ultimately founded on a set of beliefs, but that doesn't seem to be what you mean here. (Also, of course there's lots of variation in Christianity, else there wouldn't be all those denominations. Fundamentally, they all believe that Jesus performed some necessary, salvivic sacrifice; all the rest is commentary. :-) )
Early Christians didn't set out to explicitly create a new religion, but Christianity today is pretty different from Christianity then. I was speaking of today's religion(s), not the original form.
Second. I have a VERY hard time understanding or accepting a Jew who does not believe in God.
That may well be, but nonetheless, I know people who are adamant in their Judaism -- from a historical, cultural, and national perspective -- who are agnostics or athiests. They identify as Jewish the same way I might identify as Italian -- being Italian doesn't mean I believe in the Catholic god, and they don't see being Jewish as obligating them to the Jewish god. Now to me, I'm Jewish because of the religion, not because of the people, but I know there are other approaches out there.
How can you be Jewish without being religious? The same way many Christians are "Christian" without really believing -- they go to church on Easter out of habit or family/community obligation, and they celebrate Christmas in a secular fashion, and they never set foot in the building the rest of the year. Just as there are Jews who only show up for the high holy days, who hold Pesach seders in their homes, and who completely ignore the religious side the rest of the year.
If you reject the divine, then you are merely German or Polish or Russian or whatever. And if that is the case, why bother with the Holy Days and rituals and B'nai Mitzvot and so on?
Because Pesach is a family reunion, and a bar mitzvah is a birthday party, and going to services on Yom Kippur will make grandpa (who does believe) happy? I've been told all of these things by people who are quite adamant in their national identity as Jews. While I think they're missing something, I'm not going to condemn them for it. Not everyone has belief, or has had a life-changing event (yet) to make him reconsider. If something changes in the future, I'd much rather not have pushed the person away earlier, so maybe he'll feel comfortable talking to me about it later.
Part 1
Date: 2004-08-31 10:01 am (UTC)I'm failing to see the distinction you're making; can you elaborate? I think of a religion as a set of practices that's ultimately founded on a set of beliefs, but that doesn't seem to be what you mean here. (Also, of course there's lots of variation in Christianity, else there wouldn't be all those denominations. Fundamentally, they all believe that Jesus performed some necessary, salvivic sacrifice; all the rest is commentary. :-) )
You are correct in the premise that religion is a set of practices founded on a set of beliefs. I think my point was to say that Christianity is not ONLY a religion in the same way that you were saying that Judaism is a religion AND a people. In other words, Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. It is a faith, not a religion. Their faith teaches them that Jesus was/is the long awaited Jewish Messiah. Christianity is just the label for that belief. All the other junk that has been added to it over the years, ie infant baptism, christmas trees, crossing oneself, etc., is not the true Christian faith.
Early Christians didn't set out to explicitly create a new religion, but Christianity today is pretty different from Christianity then. I was speaking of today's religion(s), not the original form.
Actually, Catholicism is different today, not Christianity as a whole. Unfortunately, those unfamiliar with the Christian faith lump all Christians in the Catholic basket. But Baptists, Independents, Calvary Chapels, etc., are VERY close to the original form as they only practice in their churches what is said to have taken place in the New Testament Churches. So maybe it would be more accurate to say Catholicism is a religion, but Christianity is a faith?
They identify as Jewish the same way I might identify as Italian -- being Italian doesn't mean I believe in the Catholic god, and they don't see being Jewish as obligating them to the Jewish god.
I think my problem with that comparison is that first, being Italian is clearly not a religion. So there isn't an "Italian" God. Second, there is a definite starting point in time for the Italian people just like there is for other nationalities/races/cultures. But Judaism does not point to just a gathering of slave people at a remote point in history who decided to call themselves Jews. Judaism makes it very clear that its people began with a man named Abram who God told would become the father of many people. He changed his name to Abraham and Judaism was born. It wasn't just a nation that was born. It was a nation separated from all others to be God's chosen people. One with Divine instruction. How can a Jew know this and yet claim to not believe in God? If he doesn't believe in God, then he doesn't believe this account of the origins of his people. And if he doesn't believe in this account, then his connection is broken since there can't be a Jewish people - there is no other explanation for their origins. Again, not trying to be judgmental. It just seems so illogical and irrational that it doesn't make sense.
Part 2
Date: 2004-08-31 10:01 am (UTC)That is the fundamental mistake. True Christianity is not just showing up to church on Easter and celebrating Christmas. That person is not a Christian. It's the same logic that I am applying to a person who claims to be a Jew without believing in God. A person can't be a Christian without professing faith AND following Jesus in the same way that a Jew can not be a Jew without believing in God. When Ruth converted, she did not say, "Your traditions are my traditions. Your matzah ball soup is my matzah ball soup." She said, "Your God is my God, where you go, I go." I don't think it's an accident that that account is written in the book of Ruth. I think God put it there to really drive the point home - ALL are welcome to His family. But you can't be a part of something when you don't believe in the One who started it all.
Unfortunately so much of this unbelief stems from a refusal of the Jewish people in general to open their Bibles and see what it actually has to say. The Torah is not some scroll you touch with a prayer book and kiss and then ignore it. That just was NOT God's intention for giving us His book. His intention was for His people to read it, study it, live by it, and honor it. Well, most Jews have gotten the "honor" part right but have ignored the rest.
Let me put it another way. If a person who claimed to be a Christian was asked, "Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God and rose from the dead?" and he said, "No", then he is not a Christian. It's that simple. So in that same manner that can be applied to this as well. "Do you believe in the God that gave us the Torah you kiss twice a year, who told you to celebrate Pesach, who gave the ground rules for Yom Kippur, and who told you to inscribe His word on your doorposts" and he says, "no". How can he possibly call himself a Jew? Think about it, why do so many Jews say I am a Russian Jew or a German Jew or a Polish Jew? If being Jewish was simply just belonging to a people, then they could drop the Russian, German, and Polish and just say Jew. But they don't, the "Jew" part shows that they are a Jew in the religious/faith sense who is descendent from Russia or Germany or Poland.
I DO understand what you are saying and I am fully aware that nothing I am saying will change the fact that 75% of Jews don't believe in God and simply cling to their Jewish heritage as some sort of birth right. But I would like to remind that person how often God laid down in the Torah to "cut this one off and cut that one off." You are not a bound and sealed Jew for life if you refuse God or worship other Gods (sports, TV, atheism, etc). Maybe this is something for us to think about?
Re: Part 2
Date: 2004-09-01 06:23 pm (UTC)In their opinion. Obviously we disagree. :-) (Or at least I do.)
It is a faith, not a religion.
It's founded on a faith, to be sure, but I don't see how their obligatory practices (mass, abstinence during lent, meatless days, tithing, and so forth) are any different from our obligatory practices (halacha). For both religions, there is a fundamental belief (about Jesus or God) and a set of rules that follow from that. But I think we're off on a side-track.
Actually, Catholicism is different today, not Christianity as a whole.
I've gotten the impression that some orthodox and Protestant denominations are pretty different from early Christianity, though I'll grant that Roman Catholicism may vary more than most others. Not being an insider to the others, I hesistate to draw too many conclusions. Perhaps some of my other readers will jump in, if anyone else is still following a thread this old.
And if he doesn't believe in this account, then his connection is broken since there can't be a Jewish people - there is no other explanation for their origins.
There were Hebrews before there were Jews, and for all practical purposes they became one and the same at Sinai. There are certainly folks out there who identify with the people -- or, if you prefer, race -- who do not accepts its religion. You talk about Polish Jews and Russian Jews and so forth, but most of the Jews I know actually just call themselves Jews. To these people, there is a difference between national identity and religious identity. By your argument, anyone who doesn't accept the biblical account of creation can't call himself a human, because he challenges the origin story -- but I trust you'd agree that this wouldn't be reasonable.
You and I approach Judaism religiously. It would have made no sense for me to convert if I didn't accept the religion, after all. To me, the religion is dominant and peoplehood is a side-effect. But this isn't the only path, and for some people it's enough to have been born Jewish, or to be Israeli, or to get together with the extended family every spring for a ritual meal, or whatever. They aren't practicing Judaism (for the most part), but they are Jews. Being born into Judaism is enough to establish identity, just like the most rabid anti-American protester is still a citizen if he was born here. It's not the situation you or I would prefer, but you don't get to kick them out of the clubhouse.
75% of Jews don't believe in God
Where did you get that statistic?
Re: Part 2
Date: 2004-09-02 06:12 am (UTC)I _will_ say that many of the Protestant groups I've interacted with are a lot more subtle about the concept of 'obligatory practices' than Catholicism is (which is, admittedly, like saying something is smoother than sandpaper)
Additionally, many Protestant denominations pride themselves on seeing 'obligatory practices' as contrary to the entire spirit.... something like "you should do things because you can see they're the right thing to do, not because someone tells you to" or something like that..... so think I can see some of where freethinkernj is coming from...
I have a friend, a 'Free Will Baptist' (for one distinction, the kind of Baptist that doesn't see a non-literal way of looking at the Genesis account as heretical, unlike some of the ones at the Baptist churches mom tried out when I was a kid), who is rather squicked out about the whole 'tribal identity' thing in both Judaism and old-world-oriented Catholicism. He sees that as a prime example of something Catholicism "kept that shouldn't have been kept" from Judaism. (He has a tendancy to view investing tradition with an importance beyond "does this still 'work'?" as flawed, that continuity is nowhere near as important doing what would most efficiently reach current goals. On the other hand, he's still in his early 20s :) He's probably not the only one that feels that way... and knowing that there are Christians that feel that way can give some perspective to statements.
(sorry you got this twice,