Shabbat (comparative religion, mostly)
Aug. 28th, 2004 11:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cellioAt torah study we talked about the direct contact that Moshe had with God (when God would descend on the mishkan and speak to him). The rabbi pointed out that we tend to not make a big deal about this -- "oh yeah, God talked to Moshe" as opposed to getting excited about it. Why are we so blase about it? The Christians he spent the last month would have been all over that sort of thing with excitement, he said. (I pointed out that compared to the revelation at Sinai, this is less dramatic. It doesn't happen out in public and it doesn't involve the whole people. We tend to focus on the immanance and pure power of that moment with the whole people.)
This led to a discussion of the transcendant versus immanent God, with my rabbi speculating that the Christians he's met seem to be much more focused on an immanent God, while he (personally) is more comfortable with a transcendant God. (Yes, of course it's some of each, but different people are comfortable with different divisions.) Most of the Christians in his group were happy to talk about their direct, personal relationships with God; most Jews, in his experience, are uncomfortable doing that. (We might or might not have such relationships, but we don't tend so much to talk about them.)
I think there is a structural issue there, at least when you talk about lay people. (Not so much clergy, I hope.) Christianity is a religion, and if you're part of the community it's because you're part of the religion. You can assume a high degree of agreement on basic theological principles. But Judaism is also a people, and there are quite a few people who identify as Jewish but don't believe in God, or don't share your understanding of what God wants or how to relate to him. They are part of the community for other reasons. So if you find yourself talking theology with the guy sitting next to you at the annual meeting, the odds are somewhat lower that you'll share core beliefs, especially in liberal congregations. In other words, the density of religious feeling in the congregation is lower.
When it came time for the ice-breaker question in the service, he asked us to share a significant religious moment from our childhoods. (He initially said a Jewish moment, then realized not everyone grew up Jewish.) People talked about all sorts of things -- seders, other family moments, b'nei mitzvah, camp, and other things. I said something to the effect that all of my significant religious experiences from childhood were negative so I wouldn't talk about those, but that the talmud states that a convert is like a newborn so I'm free to talk about anything Jewish. This got a big laugh, and when I was done the rabbi said something like "we'll all be here for you to help you through your adolescence; these are difficult years, but I'm sure you'll pull through". It's nice to have a rabbi with a sense of humor. :-) By the way, I talked about reading torah -- and it was actually the second time I read, not the first, that I really, really felt a connection with it.
Pacing is not one of the associate rabbi's strengths, so when he left at a bit after 10, we were just getting to Barchu. (Usually we start the torah service around 10:15.) I took over the service and tried to expedite, choosing shorter melodies and skipping optional readings and stuff like that, but we were still running pretty late. (It's hard to make up that much time in kriat shema and t'filah, after all.) Unfortunately, this week's torah reader didn't realize that we were running so late, so she didn't abbreviate the d'var she'd prepared or otherwise expedite. She was also kind of nervous, and seeing people leave partway through her part of the service probably didn't help. I feel for her. I talked with her some after the service, but I also need to send a note to the mailing list about tricks for keeping a service on track. I'm not perfect either, of course, but I seem to have picked up some hints by observing my rabbi. And maybe I need to get a clock for the room.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2004-09-01 06:23 pm (UTC)In their opinion. Obviously we disagree. :-) (Or at least I do.)
It is a faith, not a religion.
It's founded on a faith, to be sure, but I don't see how their obligatory practices (mass, abstinence during lent, meatless days, tithing, and so forth) are any different from our obligatory practices (halacha). For both religions, there is a fundamental belief (about Jesus or God) and a set of rules that follow from that. But I think we're off on a side-track.
Actually, Catholicism is different today, not Christianity as a whole.
I've gotten the impression that some orthodox and Protestant denominations are pretty different from early Christianity, though I'll grant that Roman Catholicism may vary more than most others. Not being an insider to the others, I hesistate to draw too many conclusions. Perhaps some of my other readers will jump in, if anyone else is still following a thread this old.
And if he doesn't believe in this account, then his connection is broken since there can't be a Jewish people - there is no other explanation for their origins.
There were Hebrews before there were Jews, and for all practical purposes they became one and the same at Sinai. There are certainly folks out there who identify with the people -- or, if you prefer, race -- who do not accepts its religion. You talk about Polish Jews and Russian Jews and so forth, but most of the Jews I know actually just call themselves Jews. To these people, there is a difference between national identity and religious identity. By your argument, anyone who doesn't accept the biblical account of creation can't call himself a human, because he challenges the origin story -- but I trust you'd agree that this wouldn't be reasonable.
You and I approach Judaism religiously. It would have made no sense for me to convert if I didn't accept the religion, after all. To me, the religion is dominant and peoplehood is a side-effect. But this isn't the only path, and for some people it's enough to have been born Jewish, or to be Israeli, or to get together with the extended family every spring for a ritual meal, or whatever. They aren't practicing Judaism (for the most part), but they are Jews. Being born into Judaism is enough to establish identity, just like the most rabid anti-American protester is still a citizen if he was born here. It's not the situation you or I would prefer, but you don't get to kick them out of the clubhouse.
75% of Jews don't believe in God
Where did you get that statistic?
Re: Part 2
Date: 2004-09-02 06:12 am (UTC)I _will_ say that many of the Protestant groups I've interacted with are a lot more subtle about the concept of 'obligatory practices' than Catholicism is (which is, admittedly, like saying something is smoother than sandpaper)
Additionally, many Protestant denominations pride themselves on seeing 'obligatory practices' as contrary to the entire spirit.... something like "you should do things because you can see they're the right thing to do, not because someone tells you to" or something like that..... so think I can see some of where freethinkernj is coming from...
I have a friend, a 'Free Will Baptist' (for one distinction, the kind of Baptist that doesn't see a non-literal way of looking at the Genesis account as heretical, unlike some of the ones at the Baptist churches mom tried out when I was a kid), who is rather squicked out about the whole 'tribal identity' thing in both Judaism and old-world-oriented Catholicism. He sees that as a prime example of something Catholicism "kept that shouldn't have been kept" from Judaism. (He has a tendancy to view investing tradition with an importance beyond "does this still 'work'?" as flawed, that continuity is nowhere near as important doing what would most efficiently reach current goals. On the other hand, he's still in his early 20s :) He's probably not the only one that feels that way... and knowing that there are Christians that feel that way can give some perspective to statements.
(sorry you got this twice,