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Christmas and Chanukah

Two takes on multiculturalism and December holidays, both written by liberal Jews, with rather different stances: one from JBCs (Jews by Choice) and one from the Velveteen Rabbi. I myself tend more toward the former; when we try to combine holidays with the goal of better interfaith relations, I think we weaken both. Christmas is the second most important day on the Christian calendar; it should be important and solemn for those who believe, and not be treated as somehow equivalent to a minor Jewish holiday commemorating, of all things, a victory over assimilation. (Think about that irony for a minute.) If I find myself in the midst of Christian affirmation, which to me includes everything from a mass down to singing Handel's Messiah, they should do their thing and I should withdraw [1]. We shouldn't have to compromise on "Frosty the Snowman" or a theme of light in the darkest days of winter.

Cross-religion education is a good thing, and I think most people would welcome serious inquiries from people of different faiths if they want to know more (or even attend services or other rituals). I've certainly participated on both sides of that and seen no problems. But I think we should remember that our religions are separate; they have different emphases and that's ok. We don't have to agree, and we don't have to try to build a lowest common denominator.

To my Christian friends, I wish you the best in your season of holiness now under way, as I know you wish similar things for me during the high holy days and at other times. I'm not offended by your observance of your religion; you don't need to water it down. Besides, the dreidel song is really insipid; please don't feel obligated on my account.

(Mind, I would have a different reaction to celebrations in a setting that's supposed to be neutral, like a public school or a place of (secular) employment. But that's not what I'm talking about here.)

[1] Some do not see a problem with things like singing Messiah. We all draw the "worship" line in different places.

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I almost responded "Amen" to this, but thought better of it... I am neither Jewish nor Christian, but it saddens me to see either religion (or any religion) watered down for the sake of not giving offense.
The urge to strip away all differences and claim that "we are all the same under the skin, we worship the same god," strikes me as immature and shallow.
You and I are very different, and that's not only okay, that's the way it should be. I don't want to live in a Star Trek world where everyone weighs the same and talks the same (and gives lip service to the value of cultural differences, while denying its reality).

We were having a discussion today at work about holiday decorations. We aren't allowed to have any Christmas decorations. I think that's a good thing seeing as we are a taxpayer funded institution. At least one of my coworkers is irked that we can't have Christmas decorations, claiming that most of the country is Christian and this is a Christian holiday. I can sort of see her point, but I think it is misplaced in a library. We can do a lot with seasonal decorations for winter without addressing any religious holiday.

Word.

You might be amused by this story.

My father's second wife is Roman Catholic. I was with them and her three teenagers one Christmas eve when I was a young teen. Her mother lived near-by, so every year she would drive her mother to Midnight Mass. I don't think it has ever been clarified to my step-grandmother that I'm not a practicing Jew.

On this occasion, my step-mother went to each of her three kids (all older than me) and asked in turn, "Would you like to with Nana and me to Midnight Mass". In turn each demurred (I think in favor of watching some athletic event on TV). And then, I suppose because I was hanging around and she didn't want to be rude, she turned to me and said very diffidently, "Er, I don't suppose you'd like to go to Midnight Mass?"

I looked at my three step-siblings glued to the tube, contemplated my incipient night of utter boredom for about half a second, and replied, "Sure, I'd love to."

Boy, was my step-grandmother surprised to see which kid my step-mother managed to bring along. But pleased, of course. Hope springs eternal in the Christian breast. :)

So we went to Midnight Mass, which was an educational experience for me. It was not lost on my step-grandmother that I already knew all the words to all the songs that the congregation sung.

On the ride home, my step-grandmother, feeling, I suppose, encouraged to a sort of expansive ecumenicalism by my good-natured sufferance, ventured in a sage voice, "You know, someday, we'll all worship the same god."

"Really?" I chirped innocently. "Which one?"

My step-mother almost swerved off the road, laughing.

So... when someone wishes you a merry Christmas, what do you do?

Once upon a time I took offense and said, "actually, I'm Jewish," leaving the other person feeling all embarrassed. Then I realized that that was silly; the other person wanted me to enjoy their holiday, and what was wrong with that? So I tried to respond in kind and say, "Thank you, and I hope you have a very happy Chanukah too." and this led to their having the "um, I'm not Jewish" reaction" that left me abashedly mumbling, "So? Have a nice one anyway." Kind of like all the times I tried to wish everyone a happy new year in September. :-)

It's sort of like the dilemma I have about presents. If I were to give you a Chanukah present, it would be mutually understood. If a Christian gives another Christian a Christmas present, again, the mutual understanding is there.

But if I give a present at Chanukah to a Christian friend, is it best to call it a Chanukah present (specifically highlighting giving and not receiving as the tradition) or a Christmas present (honoring the predilection of the recipient?) Calling it a winter-holiday present feels sorta... null.

Well-said!

I think for a publicly-funded library a no-decorations rule is the right call -- not so much because of an appearance of endorsement, though that's part of it, but because you're there to serve all of the public, and some of them would be uncomfortable if greeted by a life-size nativity scene at the entrance, even if you also had a chanukiyah on the counter.

Your coworker's thinking is not unusual; lots of people seem to equate "most of us are X" with "this is an X country". I worry about this a lot more in politics than in decoration policies, mind, but it's a common attitude. I'm sick of hearing "this is a Christian country" (and therefore the following laws are appropriate...), and I'll bet most of the founders would roll over in their graves at the thought too. :-)

"Really?" I chirped innocently. "Which one?"

*laugh* Thank you for brightening my morning!

So... when someone wishes you a merry Christmas, what do you do?

I generally assume that "merry Christmas" has taken on the same role as "have a nice day" (now escalated to "have a great day" in many places) -- a rote greeting that usually does not pass through the deliberation phase of the brain on the way to the mouth. It's December, and that's something a lot of people just say in December. I used to respond in the ways you talked about, but I've come to the conclusion that the cashier at the grocery store doesn't really care, and the socially-correct response is along the lines of "same to you". For someone I'm closer to, where it would be appropriate to drop the "actually I'm not" hint, I'll say something different.

I usually side-step the gift thing by just handing the person the package and saying "I'd like you to have this". :-) Or, if it's my parents, it's pretty clear that it's a Christmas celebration so shrug, but if they can keep the family get-together Jesus-free on my account, I can at least admire their tree and not be unhappy if there are reindeer on the gift-wrap.

While I understand the reason for elevating Chanukah in importance (it's proximity to Christmas, a major Christian holiday), I've always found it to be a foolish thing to do. One might argue that, for observant Jews, any given Sabbath is more important than Chanukah (and some other holidays, besides). Plus, the history of the holiday always made it very unpleasant for me to think about. Not unexpectedly, perhaps; libertarians tend not to cheer theocratic victories. :-)

I have a feeling how the people who want nativity scenes on public property would feel if instead we were talking about some of those Indian goddesses with multiple arms and stuff. I mean, that's a religious symbol to lots of people, right?

But that's not what I want. I don't want a tiny chanukiah next to a nativity scene, or christmas tree, or even a HUGE chanukiah. It's public property; I don't want to see any religious display. I can do that at home, thank you very much.

Now, if my neighbor wants to put a Christmas tree on his lawn, or an Indian statue, or a pink flamingo... that's their business. I might object if it was a next door neighbor who had a Christmas display that was so huge that it attracted so many people that there were huge traffic jams from October 31st until January 15th... but I'd feel the same way about any 2 and a half-month long display that backed up traffic.

I completely agree. Churches and individuals should put up nativity scenes if they feel so moved; the city should not. The JCC or individuals should put up the enormous chanukiyah if so moved (or hold the mondo bonfire on Lag b'Omer, or whatever); the county should not. The Hindu temple or individuals should put up the multi-armed statues if so moved; the state should not.

any given Sabbath is more important than Chanukah (and some other holidays, besides)

*ding ding ding ding ding*

I'm reminded of the following story: during the crusades, a virtuous Jew is despairing. After pouring his heart out in prayer, he is visited by Eliyahu, who tries to comfort him. The man asks "will we ever be accepted?" and in answer, Eliyahu carries him forward in time. They land in December in present-day Manhattan, and amidst all the Christmas decorations the man sees many chanukiyot and stars of david and bright lights and other Jewish symbols. The man gets very excited and responds: "Wow, that's great! If they make such a big deal out of Channukah, I can't wait to see what they do for Shavuot!"

Oh, good one! :-)

I have a few Jewish colleagues (not all of them, to be fair) who do make a very big deal about Chanukah, but don't actually know what Shavuot is.

You hit the nail on the head.

Bingo. god. I'm so glad I"m not the only one who feels this way. Yeesh.

Yeah, me too. The most effective jokes are the ones that can pinpoint these kernels of truth. :-)

Some of the Jews I knew who make a big deal over Chanukah are explicitly reacting to Christmas -- sort of a "hey, we can play that game too" sort of thing. Pity they'd rather do that than channel that energy into building up a neglected major holiday, but oh well.

My coworker just doesn't get that a nativity scene might make people uncomfortable. She just thinks they should overlook it. Being raised Christian, I personally don't mind Christmas displays. I still like lots of Christmas carols. However, I disagree that we should expect everyone to look past a religious display in a public place. Like I said, there a plenty of generic winter decorations that we can display without using religious displays. Of course, I suppose you could then argue that we are displaying pagan decorations. Hmmm....

Personally, I like to see decorations in the library. I like the color and I think it makes it more inviting. I don't think you can avoid offending anyone, but at least we can do our best. Since religion can be such a sensitive topic, we had best avoid that all together.

I am constantly bombarded by overtly Christian messages all over the place. And I'm not talking about Christmas. This is all year long. That's one of the side effects of the area in which I live. There are all kinds of signs, some subtle, some not, in businesses. And we won't even talk about the billboards! Most of the time I do tend to look past it, since I support freedom of religious expression in private places. I suspect that a lot of those people displaying the Christian messages would not be very supportive of displays of other religions. If they were, I would be very happy. I enjoy the diversity of religion in our country and like seeing expressions of it as long as the practitioners of a particular brand don't try to shove their brand down my throat. Unfortunately, that's what I feel happens. But I can dream of a better world! :-)

I agree. It's just a rote greeting. It's the same kind of thing as when someone says how are you. I assume they want the rote reply of fine, not a real answer. When I was a freshman in college, I wrote an English paper on these types of phrases. That was about 30 years ago, so I don't remember exactly what I put in the paper. I wonder if I still have it somewhere.

Just before Thanksgiving, I took to saying ,em>Have a nice holiday to the patrons. I figure if most people are off work, it's a holiday. I plan to do the same right before Christmas.

She just thinks they should overlook it.

If you feel inclined to engage her on the topic, you could try

goljerp's question about the Indian god(dess) statue. If she's bothered by that, maybe she could see that to a non-Christian a nativity scene is kind of the same thing.

Of course, I suppose you could then argue that we are displaying pagan decorations. Hmmm....

If you decorate the place seasonally anyway, that would be a weak argument. Are flowers in the spring pagan too? I don't think so. Sometimes a snowflake is just a snowflake. :-)

I enjoy the diversity of religion in our country and like seeing expressions of it as long as the practitioners of a particular brand don't try to shove their brand down my throat.

Ditto.

I generally assume that "merry Christmas" has taken on the same role as "have a nice day"

You know why Christians promote Christmas so heavily? Misery loves company, that's why. (Only half joking.)

Besides, the dreidel song is really insipid; please don't feel obligated on my account.

Which reminds me: have you run across "Here in my House", a multi-culti Channuka/Christmas song which, IMHO, doesn't suck?

Oh, heck, I just googled and discovered the composer, Aline Shader, was a MEd. alum of Cambridge College. :) :) :)

I can not agree that "no Christmas decorations" is the way to go. I would rather include all faiths than none. Why should someone be offended by seeing a display of a different religion? A caveat that the display has to be respectful.

Hold onto your hats, but I learned Christmas songs in Public School! Not only that, I learned the Menorah song at the same time! Oh my gosh! (I have curtailed saying "Oh my God" due to a very religiously strict person at work, but it seemed like a such little sacrifice to make someone happy.) And you know, if I had learned a little more a little earlier maybe that whole "asking for pepperoni on your pizza bagel at the Jewish deli" could have been avoided.

I'm just thinking that maybe we need to share our celebrations more, throughout the year. Maybe that would even lead to more understanding of each other and peace and harmony and good things.

Adam Sandler's Chanukah songs do make up for the dreidel song.

If you get a chance, listen to Dar William's "The Christians and the Pagans". It chokes me up just to think about the song.

I had recently created a song list on my iPod with all my spiritual music. I am greatly amused that I have representation of at least five different religions. But I must confess to having very little Jewish religious music. Any suggestions? (Boy, I came to the right place for that didn't I, Monica?)

One thing I must ask, why so many different spellings of Chanukah?!?

I can not agree that "no Christmas decorations" is the way to go. I would rather include all faiths than none.

First off, let me clarify that I'm talking about public property and similar domains. Whatever my neighbors want to put on their lawn is fine with me so long as their sight-seers don't cause damage to my property. :-)

Ok, try to imagine being, say, a fairly traditional Muslim, who objects to human figures in art and especially naked women. Now suppose your Hindu boss puts out a huge statue of some naked Indian goddess. Do you think it's possible you might be a little uncomfortable having that looming over you all day at work? Even though your boss never intended to offend you?

I'm deliberately choosing extremes -- and running the risk that being neither Muslim nor Hindu I'm wrong in the details -- to try to separate this from our own religious reactions. It shouldn't matter whether we're talking about naked goddesses or big crosses, after all.

The first-order problem is the appearance of (or actual) endorsement -- proclaiming this place to be specifically for a particular religion. So to counter that, sometimes people will put up symbols of other religions alongside the objectionable ones, to show that they're multicultural. The problem with that -- the second-order problem -- is that it implies some degree of equivalence. (And the third-order problem is that you'll always leave someone out no matter how hard you try, because not everyone has a holiday on any given target date.)

Now if someone made a point of decorating for every holiday throughout the year, regardless of origin, that might be different. Maybe a good educational exercise for a school, even. But by paying attention to Chanukah while ignoring Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot, and for that matter Shabbat -- all much more important than Chanukah -- they help contribute to the "Chanukah is Jewish Christmas" myth. That doesn't harm me per se; it's just annoying, in the same way that liberals from red states resent the sweeping characterizations of their communities.

In addition, members of any majority -- religious, political, other -- have an extra duty to try to avoid tromping on the minorities. No one means to be rude, but the assumption that everyone around you is like you can create some awkward situations, particularly between non-equal folks (boss/employee, teacher/student, etc). I think refraining from decorating the workplace/school/courthouse is a prudent precaution in this area. It's not like you can't go wild with your house, place of worship, private meeting house, etc, after all.

Hold onto your hats, but I learned Christmas songs in Public School!

So did I. We had a concert every year with mandatory participation. No one was trying to be mean about this; they just assumed that of course everyone was a Christian, and they really didn't know how to handle people who said they weren't. I'll grant that things are probably better now than they were in the 60s and 70s, but I'm not ready to believe that minorities feel on an equal footing just because someone threw a Chanukah song into the Christmas concert.

I'm just thinking that maybe we need to share our celebrations more, throughout the year. Maybe that would even lead to more understanding of each other and peace and harmony and good things.

I agree that sharing more would be good. I think it's safer to approach it as education or demo than as required participation, though. It's ok for me to sing you songs from my religion; it's a bad idea for me to lead you in prayer. I can teach you about the Pesach seder and invite you to observe one if interested, but I shouldn't hold one in the classroom. You can tell me about the liturgy of the mass and invite me to join you at one, but you shouldn't hand out communion. That sort of thing. We need to be careful not to blur that line between "observer" and "participant".

And not just because it makes some people uncomfortable. For some members of some religions, certain types of participation in other religions are understood to be sins. To you it might be a harmless concert; to someone else it might be worship. To you it might just be polite to genuflect upon entering a church; to someone else it is idolatry.

I used to sing in a (secular) choir that did a Christmas concert every year. When I told the director that I would be dropping out for the duration (and returning after that concert each year), she got upset with me. To her (also not a Christian, BTW), music is just music. I could not convince her that there might be a deeper meaning to songs proclaiming a god incarnate. Both of us were trying to understand the other's position but neither succeeded in getting through.

But I must confess to having very little Jewish religious music. Any suggestions?

Oh sure, lots. :-)

For choral music, I cannot recommend highly enough the works of Salamone Rossi, a 17th-century Italian composer who wrote some gorgeous music for 3 to 8 voices. His Shabbat music has been collected as "Songs of Solomon" (yes, it's a pun on his name). There are two different two-CD recordings, both very good and findable on Amazon last I checked.

For choral performances of a variety of Jeuish music, check out the Zamir Chorale from Boston. They're very good, they have several recordings, and they have a mix of liturgical, Israeli, Yiddish, and other music.

For modern singable music, some liturgical and some not, Debbie Friedman is very popular. Her music is kind of folksy, though the newer stuff is sometimes more performer-oriented. (She grew up in the folk traditions of the 60s.) There are a number of other good performers in this space too -- Jeff Klepper, Benjie Ellen Shiller, and Danny Maseng being some of my favorites -- but I'm not sure what's out there in the way of solo recordings. I know them mostly from compilation albums.

If camp-style music is your thing, NFTY (National Federation of Temple Youth) has published several compilation albums over the years. You can get them through Transcontinental Music.

For more Chassidic-style music, which is sometimes meditative and almost mantra-like and sometimes more lively, the name is Shlomo Carlebach. He's a so-so singer in terms of technical qualities, but you can just feel the spirituality in his singing.

For instrumental music, there are lots of klezmer bands out there. I'm out of my depth there; I enjoy the Klezmatics and the Hot Matzohs, though I don't know if the latter have recordings.

I hope other people reading this will add their own recommendations!

Haven't heard of it before, no.

Yes, I did assume you mean public places. I was thinking about cubicle farms myself.

I would not mind having Muslim, Hindu, or Pagan symbols around. I would object to naked women only on the grounds that nudity is considered a no-no. Ew! you just grossed me out in thinking that my boss (who is Hindu) has a nude statue! I would even question whether a person should be offended by the human body, but that's probably good for a future discussion.

The devil may be in the details of this thought. Yes, it is too easy for someone to put in their own faith into the assumptions of presenting a religion. One would hope that someday we could get to a point where people could feel free to constructively criticize and both parties could come to a compromise without either getting offended. The respect of others is so key to the whole thing working out.

I just realized that maybe I am thinking more extremely than you mean. Putting up a huge cross is one thing, but what about Christmas lights? Or a Christmas tree (which we know comes from Pagan roots)? Or a Star of David?

But this whole thought gets back to my feeling about fundamentalism (of any religion, or even cultures for that matter). I think that people that think other people are bad just because they're different is evil incarnate.

Liberals from red states, huh? Nothing personal? *smile*

I knew that I was asking the right person!

I will be sure to check these out.

Thanks!

Yes, I did assume you mean public places. I was thinking about cubicle farms myself.

Time for more hair-splitting, then. :-)

I think of one's cublicle as sort of an extension of personal space. I don't care if you put lights or even a little nativity scene in your cubicle, just as I don't care if you wear a big cross pendant. (You see that star in my userpic? It's a scan of a small necklace I wear every day.) But a cubicle is different from a display at the reception desk or the patio just outside the front door. That's where I see a potential problem -- and similarly in (public) schools, because classrooms are not the teachers' private space (like your cube) but rather public space (like the reception desk), and any public place in public buildings (like the courthouse).

I would not mind having Muslim, Hindu, or Pagan symbols around.

Because you come from a tradition that has no problem with such things. But imagine coming from a tradition that says gazing upon such things is sinful. I know such traditions exist. (Just to be clear, I don't think looking at these symbols is sinful. I'm made uncomfortable by the symbolism, not the symbol.) If such a person walks into your home or your cubicle it's his problem, but he should be able to walk into the public library without issues.

Ew! you just grossed me out in thinking that my boss (who is Hindu) has a nude statue!

Let me stress that I made that example up. I know that some Indian traditions include depictions of gods that are not always clothed. I don't know how that intersects with Hinduism, nor do I know anything about Hindu worship. Please don't hold anything against your boss on account of this hypothetical scenario.

I think that people that think other people are bad just because they're different is evil incarnate.

I don't think much of that idea either, but I don't think that's what we're talking about. Ok, concrete example... I've been to (a few) Christian masses; when I go I just sit there, observing but declining to participate. I'm perfectly respectful of those who are there to worship, but I won't rise for the gospel reading, kneel for the eucharist, say "amen" to the prayers, sing the songs, and so on. People have challenged me, saying things like "there's nothing objectionable in the lord's prayer so you can say that", but that's not the point. Even if I agreed with the sentiments, in that context it is an act of Christian worship, and that is an activity forbidden to me. So for me, Christian worship is a bad thing.

Does that make the people who do it bad people? Heavens no! I hope none of my Christian friends have the notion that I have such an opinion. I recognize that it is right for them, I enjoy their friendship, I like to learn about their traditions, and I even enjoy observing what they're comfortable sharing. But I'm an outsider; I'm not one of them. And I don't want to blur that line.

And I don't care if we're talking about Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, pagan rites, or something else. The people are fine; the acts are fine for them; the acts are wrong for me.

Did I just make things clearer, or muddier?

One thing I must ask, why so many different spellings of Chanukah?!?

Transliterations from languages using different alphabets are always chancy. Remember when Beijing was Peking?

There are three issues in the word "chanukah". First, the initial consonant is a gutteral, sort of like the "ch" in German. In Hebrew, there are two different letters that can make that sound, so pedantic transliterations need to differentiate. I don't know the rules for academic transliteration, but I've seen the following used for these two sounds: "ch", "kh", and (when not restricted to ASCII) "h" with a dot under it. I suspect that this last is the main source of sometimes just seeing "h" (e.g. "Hanukah"); that and the fact that non-native speakers have trouble making that sound to begin with.

For the second point, I'm going to wave my hands wildly and say "grammar thing". There is a symbol (called a dageish) that can sometimes appear with a consonant; it doesn't change the pronunciation but it changes other things (like conjugation?) in ways that I don't really understand. So a pedantic transliteration will want to convey the presence of that symbol, which is usually done by doubling the consonant. The consonant corresponding to the "n" in this word has that symbol.

Third, there is the matter of the final "h". It's silent, so sometimes people leave it out, but again, there is a Hebrew letter corresponding to that letter, so a pedantic transliteration represents it.

The most correct transliteration, then, is probably "Channukah". The least correct would be "Hanuka".

And just in case that's not enough for you, not all vowels are as they appear either... :-) (Though I don't think that problem arises in this word.)

I think most people who are not academics or professionals apply these rules inconsistently based on a sense of what "looks right". For example by these rules, my Hebrew name should have a final "h", but for some reason almost everyone writes "Shira" and not "Shirah", and that's what I'm used to.

***
Let me stress that I made that example up. I know that some Indian traditions include depictions of gods that are not always clothed. I don't know how that intersects with Hinduism, nor do I know anything about Hindu worship. Please don't hold anything against your boss on account of this hypothetical scenario.
***
You would have to know my boss to really get the level of "Ew!" right. Now, a boss I had a few years ago that was also Hindu, I could see *him* doing that.

Well, I would have a hard time arguing against that.

(Biblical Hebrew) Linguist here: The dagesh is in the kaf and not in the nun, so no double "n". The dagesh in the kaf keeps it from being even weirder to transliterate, because without it there would be one of each of the ch/kh letters and then there would be the question of whether or not to transliterate them the same way.

If I were transliterating the word for another linguist - and assuming my American/Israeli pronunciation which doesn't differentiate between chet and chaf - I'd write it as xanuka where the x is pronounced like the ch at the end of Bach. For general usage I usually write chanukah, but that's partly "it just looks the best" of the variations I've seen over the years.

But imagine coming from a tradition that says gazing upon such things is sinful. I know such traditions exist.

To give a related example (different, but in the same space):

I'm a moderately-active Freemason, and used to be moreso. Modern Masonry's attitude towards religion is studiedly ecumenical: members are required to be religious, but not required to be members of any specific religion. (There are some implicit assumptions of monotheism, but that's not technically a requirement.)

When I was more active in Masonry on the Net, back when the Internet was new and shiny and there weren't that many of us there (a close friend and sometime SCAdian put up the first Masonic webpage I know of), I often spent time answering questions about it. One of the most common misconceptions was people who believed that they couldn't join because only Catholics, or only Jews, or only Protestants were allowed in. (Yes, I've run across each religion explicitly believing that only some other one was allowed to be Masons.)

One day, I wound up in a conversation with a Baptist (don't remember the denomination), and expected to have to give the usual clarifications. Instead, it turned out that he wasn't going to be able to join for precisely the opposite reason: *because* Masonry was ecumenical, he felt he had to eschew it.

The discussion was fascinating, because the fellow was no sort of raging bigot or anything like that. But he was very serious about his religion, and took seriously the notion that his interpretation of God was the only correct one. (A statement that most religions believe deep down, but are leery of saying too loudly these days.) Therefore, the ecumenical stance of Masonry, which almost explicitly says that all religions are equally valid, was intellectually dishonest in his view; indeed, it was essentially sinful, because becoming a Mason would have meant endorsing a statement about religion that was counter to his beliefs.

Very eye-opening chat, with some hard truths in it. I'm very used to Blue-State America's religious relativism, and it's too easy to dismiss everyone else as ranting fanatics. But it illustrated that many religions really just aren't compatible with that relativism. And it doesn't require fanaticism to feel that, simply a cool intellectual look at the tenets of the faith...

Thanks very much! As for the dageish -- that'll teach me to spell from memory. :-) (I've sen the "nn" so much that I think I back-constructed. Oops.)

Instead, it turned out that he wasn't going to be able to join for precisely the opposite reason: *because* Masonry was ecumenical, he felt he had to eschew it.

That does sound fascinating! Thanks for sharing that.

And I agree with your conclusion -- there are plenty of people out there who have deeply-held "extreme" religious positions who are not fanatics in the usual sense of the word. And y'know, they have rights too...

Thanks for linking to my recent blog post, even though you draw your line (on things like singing Messiah, e.g.) in a different place than I do.

I agree with you that combining holidays can water them down in a way that's fair to neither holiday. Then again, many interfaith families opt to celebrate the holidays of both partners, and that makes sense to me in a way that Jewish-families-with-Christmas-trees don't...

Anyway, thanks for the signal-boost!

-- Rachel (Velveteen Rabbi)

Thanks for the feedback!

You're right; interfaith families and Jews with Christmas trees are different cases. Within the space of interfaith families, I've seen some that give the various holidays the weight that makes sense in the source religions, and others that try to make each season "balanced" in some way. This means Chanukah ends up being a much bigger deal than it should be, or that Christmas gets watered down. That's a pity.

As for drawing lines, the adage about two Jews and three opinions comes to mind. :-)

The most correct transliteration, then, is probably "Channukah". The least correct would be "Hanuka".

I like Rhu Green's: "Happy (Ch|H|Kh)an(n)uk(k)a(h)."

"But if I give a present at Chanukah to a Christian friend, is it best to call it a Chanukah present (specifically highlighting giving and not receiving as the tradition) or a Christmas present (honoring the predilection of the recipient?)"

It's a little complicated and perhaps a bit long to fit into a comment, but the starting place for my answer is that the act of giving the gift is the element that honours the tradition, so in general you would give me a Channukah gift and I would give you a Christmas gift, and accepting each other's gifts would be a sign that we respect each other's holidays and traditions, not that we felt we had to participate in each other's celebrations. But if we were personally so close to each other that we might want to share each other's holiday traditions, then I might give you a Channukah gift or you give me a Christmas gift and have it come across as "sweet" instead of strange. Absent such a close personal relationship, that would feel a little odd.

OTOH, sometimes, "I got you a [Christmas|Channukah] gift, but I'm giving it to you today so that it can serve as a [Channukah|Christmas] present as well" works. I'm not sure I can quite put my finger on what makes that work or not (relationship-wise, that is; other than how the calendars happen to line up in any given year)

There was one time I received a Taoist Christmas present, but that was a deliciously ironic accident rather than an attempt to bridge two traditions.

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Christmas and Chanukah

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Holiday greetings

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Thank You!

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P.S.

OK, I'm going to be completely different

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Jewish music recommendations

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forgot one thing

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ding ding ding ding ding