one last fling with a new car

[cellio]

This morning I got a call from the salesman. Would I consider a two-door hatchback? Sure, I said. Ok, he'll fax me the data sheet for one he has on the lot now.

I called him back after seeing the fax. This is the next trim line up from what I want, and also has some extras I don't want and am not interested in paying for. That's ok, he said; my boss is willing to make a sweet deal. (He actually used the word "sweet".) So I agreed to pay them a visit tonight. (Aside: I know that this same salesman sold Dani a higher trim line for the price of the lower one strictly due to availability. The salesman, of course, knows that I know this.)

It's a good car, but one of the pricy "features" is actually an anti-feature. The fancy stereo includes some multi-speaker setup that results in speakers in the hatch, cutting slightly into the cargo area. But I decided that this wouldn't be a show-stopper by itself. (Another feature that many of the cars had is a show-stopper; I do not want the hassle of a moonroof. By the way, what's the difference between a moonroof and a sunroof anyway?)

So we sat down to talk price. He got out a sheet and wrote down the MSRP for that trim line. I said "ahem", politely, and told him the invoice price of the car I had set out to buy. He then asked me "what number do you want to end up at?" and I said "Kelly says my trade-in is worth X, Edmunds says people are paying Y for the car I want, and I want the difference". (Which, for context, was approximately $0 after rolling in the incentives. Hey, he asked where I wanted to be.) He said ok and headed off for the first of several conversations with his boss. (I wonder how many of those actually involve contact with the boss, rather than just disappearing into a back room for a few minutes.)

(I love the conceit there, by the way. When he's talking to you, it's clearly you and he against the miserly boss. When he's talking with the boss, of course, it's he and the boss against the miserly customer.)

He came back with a lower valuation for my trade-in and a higher suggestion for the purchase price. I actually forget what the number was here; I countered and he went away again.

This time he came back with an offer around $1000. I said no, and that I was willing to write $500 on the check. (In other words, including tax and all the various fees.) He asked me to sign a note to that effect and went away again.

This time he came back with the manager, who showed me a paper with the invoice price for the car and said she absolutely could not go lower than what they paid for it. I said that I felt for her but this was not the car I was looking to buy and I had been under the impression that they wanted to get this one off their lot and were willing to haggle. She said, essentially, not that much. Somewhere in here their price actually went up (to around $1400); there was apparently some confusion around the invoice price. Well, whatever. Somewhere along there I suggested that they still had wiggle room on the trade-in if they needed to record a higher sale price, but they asserted that they had called all their VW folks and the price they gave me was firm.

So we all said variations on "oh well" and I left. As I was about to get into my car, I heard the salesman calling my name. Would I come up $200 (really more like $350 because he switched from bottom line to price). I walked back in and we talked a bit, and he went back with "one last offer". They countered with something that was still too high, and I said no.

I told the salesman that he knows what I'm looking for, and he's free to call me if he finds it. Price incentives will come and go, and while my car will depreciate as time goes on, I said, I figure that their cars will also depreciate if they're still hanging around come August or so. He admitted that this was probably correct and said he'd call me if he found anything matching my parameters.

So, shrug. I don't regret the few hours I spent on the exercise, nor am I intersted in spending more than I deem the car to be worth. For the right car I would have been willing to go somewhat higher, but this was not the right car. I don't need a new car right now; my opinion may well change after a few more incidents with VW's unreliability, but for now I'm content to stick with what I've got if I can't get a good price.

Comments

[alienor.livejournal.com]

(Another feature that many of the cars had is a show-stopper; I do not want the hassle of a moonroof. By the way, what's the difference between a moonroof and a sunroof anyway?)

Moonroof slides back into the roof, a sunroof just pops up. At least, that's how it was explained to me (mine is a wierd hybrid - it does either or, depending on the button you push).

And just out of curiousity, why is it a hassle?

[miz-hatbox.livejournal.com]

I thought a moonroof didn't open at all but a sunroof did. (Our car has an opening, billed as a sunroof, and it slides back into the roof)

[sekhmets-song.livejournal.com]

I was told that a sunroof was metal, like the exterior of the car. The moonroof also has the clear window which can poop up or slide back. Don't know if I was told right or not. But I do know that my Bug was listed, officially, as having a sunroof, and it had the opaque metal (with an interior lining that matched the interior of the car) and did roll back and no glass.

[cellio]

So a sunroof is for breeze and a moonroof is for light? Who thinks these things up, anyway? :-)

[cellio]

Thanks for the explanation.

And just out of curiousity, why is it a hassle?

Generally, it's one more point of failure for a feature I don't use. If, say, my steering-wheel-mounted cruise control doesn't work, that does me no harm (I just don't use it). If the functional equivalent of a hole in the roof doesn't work, it probably means I have a leak.

In this specific case, the cost of the moonroof was just enough headroom that it bothered me -- and I'm 5'3"!

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

That's a couple of standard tactics. The hidden authority, confusing the price, playing with the trade-in price.

One nasty trick you can use, is to let them think they will be providing the financing for the purchase - and when you come for pickup just bring cash. They will negotiate knowing they get an unadmitted kick-back for the financing, which you then can take away.

You might find this web site (http://www.dcu.org/streetwise/auto/index.html) useful - Remar Sutton has written several books on the auto-buying system.

Usually, when they leave the room, they bug the area where you are sitting and listen to you, and watch you.

Last time they tried to play hidden authority on me, I just asked to negotiate with the manager directly. When the salesman demurred because it wasn't necessary, I asked "X is the price I intend to pay. Do you have the authority to make that deal, or not?" I got the manager.

I suspect you will never hear from them again.

[cellio]

That's a couple of standard tactics. The hidden authority, confusing the price, playing with the trade-in price.

Fortunately, I had printouts from Edmunds and Kelly to refer to if I felt I was getting confused. These days, I kind of wonder who doesn't.

One nasty trick you can use, is to let them think they will be providing the financing for the purchase

Thanks. I hadn't thought about that. (I'm not sure they would have believed it in this case, but it's useful to know in general.)

Thanks for the pointer to Remar Sutton.

Usually, when they leave the room, they bug the area where you are sitting and listen to you, and watch you.

Next time I'll know to bring along a book or something, just to make it obvious that I'm not squirming. :-)

[mortuus.livejournal.com]

I brought a book when I went car shopping a few months ago. At the Honda dealership we did the back and forth thing multiple times while the negotiating guy went back to talk to his manager and left me there. I whipped out my book and just sat there reading. I eventually got sick of their games and left (and bought a Toyota, where the guy I negotiated with was straight-forward and the one with the authority to reach an agreement). But the book kept me from being bored and also did away with any squirming they were trying to induce.

[cellio]

I wonder what would happen if the customer pulled out the literature for a different brand of car, or called another dealer to ask how late they're open. :-)

[mortuus.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'll have to remember to try it next time I'm car shopping. I love it!

[jducoeur]

Usually, when they leave the room, they bug the area where you are sitting and listen to you, and watch you.

Heh. Yeah, Boch pulled this on us when we were buying msmemory's car. Fortunately, we had been warned of the tactic in advance, and when we noticed it, we started chatting about how we could probably get a better deal online. Got them back to the desk *right* quick with a new offer...

[cellio]

During one of my waits I tried to call Dani to ask him to do some quickie internet research for me (about a configuration I hadn't anticipated and done in advance), but he wasn't home. In retrospect, I should have had my half of that conversation anyway. :-)

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

For some reason, my brain parsed this title as, "Once more unto the breach." No, really.

Sorry it's annoying. We bought our Hybrid a year ago, and experienced much of the same.

[cellio]

I experienced some similar things with VW last year, but it didn't go as long or get as silly. The VW salesman was actually quite pleasant to deal with; it's the rest of his dealership that deserves to rot in hell (and this coming from someone who doesn't believe in hell :-) ).

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

I admire your willingness to haggle and to negotiate firmly, because it gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[cellio]

It's also easier to negotiate from a position of strength. I made it quite clear that I was exploring options for a purchase that I did not need to make at all (and would not make if the price wasn't right). It's not like I had a deadline, unlike last year.

Actually, I'm not very good at negotiating in scenarios that aren't meant to be overly adversarial. The auto industry, though, is set up on a "take them before they take you" basis, with all the sneaky tricks and obfuscation and theatrics, so I find it easy to play hardball under those circumstances.

Even so, I am mindful of the ethic that says you don't deliberately waste the salesman's time. I did not set out to do that. I wanted to have the price conversation earlier and he didn't, though, so if he's unhappy with the time he spent he has only himself to blame.

[sue-n-julia.livejournal.com]

When Julia and I bought the Cavalier, we did a variant on the good cop/bad cop thing. Except the salesman never knew who was going to step in as bad cop. I usually got agitated about mechanical things and Julia about financing. We both got agitated about final price. It was a very good tactic as we managed to actually get the car for below market value according to Edmunds.

S

[dr-zrfq.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry they played that game with you. The salesman really should have known better; you had spread your hand the last time you were there.

On a related note, it was precisely 52 weeks ago (1 March 2004) that I bought Dora Sue. I was luckier than you were... we went online at the dealer's, compared the values of the car on different blue book web sites, I told them the price I was willing to pay, including temp tags but not taxes (I was buying the car in Pennsylvania and they couldn't do Virginia taxes) and the salesman took it (about $1000 below the sticker all told).

[cellio]

Sounds like you had a very good experience with Dora Sue, yes. By the way, Friday will mark one year for the Golf, and the expiration of the lemon laws with respect to that car. Think it can make it through the week? :-)

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

When I bought our first car, the credit union I was a member of had a deal of 3% above invoice or something like that, and I walked out paying exactly what I expected, end of story. I hate like hell to be shafted and I would never trust that go-in-to-see-my-boss nonsense. It's one thing for rugs or something; when hundreds of dollars are on the line, I'm not interested in all that dickering!

[cellio]

The dickering is a royal pain, yes. And I suspect that in the next ten to twenty years more places will go over to fixed pricing (X% over invoice) just because it's so much easier now for Joe Random Consumer to get that piece of information casually. We'll see.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

I doubt this, simply because the majority of people don't come in with that information. If they can do fixed pricing on the smart ones, and sucker pricing (aka MSRP) with the rest, they come out well ahead of the game. Car and Driver had an "expose" a few months (years?) ago, where one of their guys went undercover as a salesman, first in a high-pressure place and then in a high-volume place; in both places, the general concensus was that "internet buyers" who came in with a number were a rare but necessary evil, not the status quo.

My favorite line from bargaining -- the salesman said, "Oh, come on -- we're arguing about $300? What's $300 in a $20k deal?" Umm...how about a month of dinners? And if it's nothing, why aren't you willing to go down that amount?

Way to go, sticking to your guns. It's hard work.

[cellio]

Even now, when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and for that matter Google make it so easy, and with so many homes having internet access, people don't go in with price information? Wow.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Heck, there are people don't even comparison-shop in the grocery store, with the two unit prices spelled out for them on the shelves. It isn't just brand loyalty that keeps the more expensive clones in business... (Leaving aside the fact that some generics are now made and marketed by the very same companies that make the brand-name products.)

I don't understand it either. Just think "poor impulse control" and that might give you a better picture.

[cellio]

Heck, there are people don't even comparison-shop in the grocery store, with the two unit prices spelled out for them on the shelves.

In some of those cases, it's a matter of habit. Once upon a time the shopper determined that Brand A is more economical than Brand B and so always buys Brand A, never noticing that both prices have changed since then and the rule is no longer true. Sometimes generics are actually more expensive than the name brands, but people learned the "generics are cheaper" meme and now they just do it.

I don't understand it either. Just think "poor impulse control" and that might give you a better picture.

You're probably right.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

My favorite line from bargaining -- the salesman said, "Oh, come on -- we're arguing about $300? What's $300 in a $20k deal?" Umm...how about a month of dinners? And if it's nothing, why aren't you willing to go down that amount?

My answer to that line was "well then, take it out of your commission, if it is nothing." Suddenly it wasn't nothing anymore.

They love to point out, in financed deals, that it's like a dollar a month or something. When put that way it seems almost reasonable. When you figure the interest on that dollar a month, it's not so small anymore.

[ironangel]

wow.

when we went to biondi parkway ford, the manager sat one desk over. he, the salesman, and we all chatted and negotiated. then even tried to find us a ranger (one step down from what we wanted, which was an F-150 truck) that would work, what with the options we required (cruise control and a CD player; not white or tan) and the high balance on the jeep we were trading in.

of the three places we went (Day, Schultz, and Biondi), Biondi was the only place I felt comfortable. there wasn't any "back room meetings", they were willing to hunt down incentives for us, and I really felt that they were trying as hard as possible to help us. we'll go back there at the end of the year when we look again.

what ford dealership did you go to?

[cellio]

Where is Biondi? (You said "parkway", but which one?)

I went to Day. The salesman seemed reasonable going into last night's discussions, but either he wasn't or the dealership throttled him too much. Either way, it doesn't sound like a good place for me to buy a car.

In thinking about it, I realized that they offered Dani, up front, a better deal than they were willing to haggle for with me. I'm wondering if being male is still the biggest bargaining chip with them. :-(

[ironangel]

Biondi Parkway Ford in Forest Hills/Wilkinsburg, right off of exit 8.

Day Ford wholly unimpressed us. The salesman walked us around the lot and didn't seem to know what they had, or where, and never took us into his office. He took the attitude of "when you find a deal somewhere else come back and I'll beat it."

Yeah, I got the feeling that both Day and Schultz were catering to Dano. That's annoying.

[sue-n-julia.livejournal.com]

I had a bad experience with Day Chevrolet -- they were on a special list for "no haggle" car buying, but still tried to haggle. And the sales person would only talk to Julia until I got in her face and told her that *I* was buying the car and not from Day.

S

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

I'm taking you with me next time I buy a car.

[cellio]

Well, you have to be prepared to not buy a car, too. :-)

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

oh sure. But even when you had a deadline with the Golf, you were much better at negotiations than I'll ever be.

I just have this naive side of me that believes that when they tell me they're giving me the best deal they can, that they're telling the truth. I know, how silly of me. I just have a hard time negotiating after that.

I don't think we got a bad deal with my Accord, but I don't know that it was ideal. The truth is, I really, really, really didn't want to buy a car that night. I wanted to go and look at the Camry also, but I was so ruffled by my car dying unexpectedly pretty far from home and trying to deal with the car rght after having moved into a new house and just having started a new job that I let myself be bullied into getting it that night.

Like I said, I think we got a decent deal, and I DO like the car. I just wish I'd been better able to stick to my terms.

[cellio]

Car dealers are very slick. They want you to see the salesman as a friend, or at least someone you'd like to be nice to. Last night mine was telling me about his past jobs and why he dumped a high-pressure dealership to join this one. No idea if it's true, of course. But if you see them as friendly people rather than businessmen you'll never see again after the check clears, they can sucker you into paying more.

I was very amicable and friendly during the entire discussion last night. I don't think going into hostile-customer mode does anyone any good. But while I was smiling and nodding I kept in mind the price I was willing to pay, and went from there. This might have been more disconcerting to them than if I'd argued, actually; I was clearly being a reasonable person, but one with a different agenda.

Oh, another thing this one did -- and so did VW last year -- was to ask up front what I wanted to pay for the car. Never give your final price there, because this will be the beginning point for haggling. I think a lot of people go into the dealership with an idea of the fair price and they cough up that number when asked. That's an invitation to be taken for hundreds of dollard (or more).

And, sadly, I think women are still at a disadvantage that has nothing to do with ability. In thinking it through, I'm pretty sure these guys offered Dani a better deal on his car. Having Seth along when you haggled probably helped even though it shouldn't have made a difference in a just world.

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

By the way, what's the difference between a moonroof and a sunroof anyway?

According to Wikipedia, a sunroof is made of metal, a moonroof is see-through. In practice, it's a cool sounding term and a salesman will apply it however he thinks it will close the deal.

Who thinks these things up, anyway? :-)

Marketing departments. It's all part of the "Sell the sizzle, not the steak" mentality.

I wonder how many of those actually involve contact with the boss, rather than just disappearing into a back room for a few minutes.

The first one, to get the very bottom line he can go to.

I love the conceit there, by the way. When he's talking to you, it's clearly you and he against the miserly boss. When he's talking with the boss, of course, it's he and the boss against the miserly customer.

*blush!* I actually still use this technique. "I'm sorry, the evil and cruel Laurel at arms won't pass your design. Why don't you let me help you design arms that S.O.B. will pass?" It's not quite those terms, but I do try to leave the impression that it's the herald and the Scadian versus Laurel. (And I actually had Jaella's permission to do this!)

Even now, when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and for that matter Google make it so easy, and with so many homes having internet access, people don't go in with price information? Wow.

You and I are part of the Information Generation. My parents don't even think in these terms.

In thinking about it, I realized that they offered Dani, up front, a better deal than they were willing to haggle for with me. I'm wondering if being male is still the biggest bargaining chip with them. :-(

Regretably, yes! When I was an evil real-estate agent, I was taught you worked on the husband. The wife was the obedient, docile subservient who would do as her lord and master commanded. I have to admit, once the husband was sold on buying the house, it didn't really matter what the wife's opinion was. And the broker teaching me this was a woman!
-- Dagonell

[cellio]

Thanks for the information.

Regretably, yes! When I was an evil real-estate agent, I was taught you worked on the husband.

Occasionally this will backfire, but presumaly not nearly as often as it works. How does the approach change when there is no husband -- i.e. the woman is shopping alone? Last year I didn't feel I was being cheated on gender by VW, but I also didn't have another data point to compare to so maybe I was. This time, I'm pretty sure I was, and the more I think about it the more certain I am that I won't return to this dealership in the future. Sure, I could bring the token male along with me, but I think instead I'll look for a dealership where it's not a necessary part of doing business.

In thinking back to our house shopping, I think either the realtor was being really subtle about it or he realized that I was the one he had to convince. (I was already a homeowner; Dani was not -- so I'd been through the process once and had a pretty good idea of what can go wrong.) I was definitely doing most of the talking in our interactions. We were presumably a fluke -- a couple where the woman appeared to be in charge of the negotiations.

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

"Occasionally this will backfire, but presumaly not nearly as often as it works."

If the woman is the dominant one, you can pick up the clues quickly. Generally you watch to see who asks for who's opinion. Any job that pays commissions is always a percentage game, 95% waste of time, 5% sales.

"How does the approach change when there is no husband -- i.e. the woman is shopping alone?"

I never encountered that situation, so I couldn't tell you.

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

I admire bargaining skills. I have practically none (which is why my husband will be in charge of buying our next car). The only person I have managed to dicker with was stone drunk, so it doesn't count.

[cellio]

The key to any bargaining situation is not falling in love with the object of your dickering. As soon as you fall in love and know you need this one, your bargaining options evaporate. This is why I found it challenging to haggle salary for my current job during the interview; I already knew that I wanted this company, but of course the salary had to not suck. After a little discussion they accepted my price, which saved us from the frustrating experience of haggling. This was helped by the hiring manager being someone who's blunt and tolerates bluntness in others. :-) (I hate games of coyness.)

If I just want to get something at a given price and there are no other factors, I'm competent at negotiating. If it involves other factors, though, and particularly if it involves friends, it's a lot harder. It's probably best to never engage in major financial transactions (houses, cars, etc) with friends unless you agree on an "external" algorithm up front (e.g. "we both agree to accept Kelly value on the car"). I tried to sell a house to a friend and it got messy.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

For some good stuff on negotiation techniques that work well (which you essentially describe with "external algorithms", read The Harvard Negotation Projects series of books, especially Getting To Yes.

Two examples of that. An SCA friend wanted to buy my used van. I quoted her a price. She said "that seems high". I said "I did my homework, and I think it is a very fair price. If you do some homework and I'm wrong, show me and I'll lower it." After doing her homework, she agreed to the price. Happily.

My worst example of this was with a tenant who had graduated from Harvard Business School. He was starting a home-based business and was rather cash poor - I offered to let him do some painting for rent credit. I figured it would be easy.

He and his wife painted the bedroom and dining room, and presented me with a huge bill. He'd been a professional house painter before, and he charged me time and materials for himself at professional rates, and his wife at apprentice rates. (I've since repainted that apartment completely - the bill for painting it completely, with some wall repair was the same as what he charged for 2 rooms, just painting.)

He became quite irate when I suggested that it was out of the question. He'd charged me a fair rate, after all, said he.

I told him that he should find a painting contractor, perhaps his former employer, and I'd find two random contractors - we'd get estimates and I'd credit him with 3/4 of the middle price. Or we could just come to a simple agreement now and I'd credit him with market rates as I perceived them.

Suddenly a lower price seemed fair. (I've never seen a painting contractor charge time and materials before... or since.)

Unfortunately for him, I didn't let him "paint for credit" ever again. Which was the price he paid for being a jerk.