changing minhag

[cellio]

The t'filah (aka the amidah), the central prayer of the service, is said silently. It is customary for the leader to wait until everyone has finished before going on with the service, but the morning minyan doesn't do that. As a congregant I found this frustrating but eventually learned to live with it; as a leader I'm now a little frustrated from the other side. So this morning I raised the issue for the first time. (I don't have the authority to make the change unilaterally, but I want to get people talking about it.)

Pro: This is broad Jewish custom. (Halacha?)

Con: But not here, and not only that but their rabbi so ruled. (This isn't just a property of the morning minyan; it's true of all their services.) That makes not doing it "local halacha".

Pro: Slower people feel rushed and/or stomped on now.

Con: If we wait, the last person to finish may feel self-conscious (like he's holding the rest of us up).

Con: It may be hard for the leader (or at least this one) to tell when people are finished, because some just stay standing rather than sitting down only to get back up for the chatzi kaddish and torah service when everyone's done. (Remember that this congregation doesn't do a chazan's repetition of the t'filah, so if you sit down after the silent one it's brief. Some don't bother.)

Obviously, because their rabbi has made a ruling, this discussion isn't about making the change directly but about approaching the rabbi -- which I'll only do if this group agrees on the proposal.

Comments

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

I was looking at the Mishnah Berurah recently and I think it says something like wait for the most prominent person (head of the bet din?). You might use that as a halachic baseline and not wait for everyone, but for most people and for the real daveners.

However, the more elegant solution (as I see it) is in doing tachanun after the amidah, which you don't mention. That gives fast people some meditative time, and slow people don't feel hurried.

[cellio]

Tachanun would be a good solution, yes. This group has stripped the service down to (or perhaps past) the minimum, pretty much, so I suspect they won't be receptive to that suggestion. But it's worth keeping in mind.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Con: it's easy for it to turn into an amidah-race, if you let it. Seeing who can get through the prayer first! It's kind of silly. I think a reasonable fixed length of time is a fine compromise, personally; of course that begs the question what reasonable is.

[cellio]

That's a good point.

In the past their metric seemed to be "when the leader is done with his, you go on". When they asked me to start leading I pointed out that I may be the slowest person there. I didn't get "that's ok"; I got suggestions for ways to speed up. Which, now that I think about it, is a relevant indicator.

So I take shortcuts when leading and otherwise try to eyeball it without looking conspicuous. (I never want to send an "I'm waiting for you" signal, after all.)

[kayre]

Coming to this as an outsider, not waiting for everyone to finish a prayer seems a bit bizarre, especially in a small group. How much variation in time are you talking about? And how do you decide how many people have to finish before you go on?

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

Pro: This is broad Jewish custom. (Halacha?)

This might be broad Jewish custom in your area, but it's certainly not universal. In Orthodox congregations, not everyone is in the same place to begin with, since in theory we all daven everything no matter when we arrive. At my former Conservative shuls (both of them), the custom was to wait until the majority (but not necessarily ALL) of the congregation was finished before proceeding. Though I've not been to a shul that skips the chazan's repetition, so I'm not sure how they would have handled it in that case.

[magid.livejournal.com]

in theory we all daven everything no matter when we arrive.
I remember learning which things one should skip if needed to catch up to the congregation at one of the points it's more important to be with the minyan for (if possible).

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's part of why I said "in theory".

In truth, mostly what I see is that if someone comes in late, they'll skip everything to be with everyone during the Amidah, and then they'll return to their regularly scheduled page number to backtrack.

[cellio]

This might be broad Jewish custom in your area, but it's certainly not universal.

Thank you. I have the impression it's common here, and a few times I've heard visitors ask why we rush on (usually a little more diplomatically than that, but not always). It appears I've over-generalized those data points.

In Orthodox congregations, not everyone is in the same place to begin with, since in theory we all daven everything no matter when we arrive.

True. In this (Conservative) congregation, everyone is together for most of the service; if you come in late you can either join in or start privately and catch up, but if you do the latter you might have trouble concentrating.

Majority?

[(Anonymous)]

To me it always seems like the Chazzan continues (to the repetition in my Shul, a Modern Orthodox one) when there are close to 10 people finished the Shemonah Esreh. If people want to take longer then nobody will tell them to hurry up, as this is their own personal conversation with G-d. Let them do as they see fit. There is a congregation, however, and certain expectations have to be met, and one of them is that at some point the majority of the people have to continue praying.

I'm no halachist, so this is really just gathered from my many experiences with Minyanim. I think people should not be ashamed if they want to take longer in their davening. My Rav usually takes more time to daven than the minyanim he attends, as it's his own personal decision. If your conversation with G-d depends so much on what other people think and not enough on what you want then to me that seems less personal.

Anyway, have a good day :)

- Inkhorn

Re: Majority?

[cellio]

when there are close to 10 people finished

That's an interesting guideline, and one that makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

[magid.livejournal.com]

I've only rarely been in a minyan where they waited until everyone had finished, rather than the majority done. OTOH, they've all been minyanim where the custom is to do repetition and tachanun, which give a lot of extra cushion for people davening more slowly.

Oh, and I've noticed it's usually not too difficult to tell when people are finished, even when they continue standing; there's a change in stance, in looking around, and so on.

[cellio]

Oh, and I've noticed it's usually not too difficult to tell when people are finished, even when they continue standing; there's a change in stance, in looking around, and so on.

True. My own problem with this is that they all insist on sitting in the back third of the chapel (well, except newcomers who didn't get the memo), and my vision isn't the best. Broad posture changes I'll get; a change in where the eyes are focused, no.