thread clash

[cellio]

When praying (which usually means when at services), I've noticed that there's a background thread that runs in my brain. While the foreground task is reciting the words in the siddur, the background thread is analyzing the words (ok, only some of the words) based on what I've learned so far of grammar. Sometimes I notice something new (oh, that's how that verb is put together!). This is good; direct application aids learning.

But... is there a way to prevent that thread from grabbing focus? Its job, most of the time, is to note things to come back to later, but sometimes it distracts me when I ought not be distracted. Like, say, when I'm leading services. I don't want to surpress it; I just want it to behave.

(Please tell me that other people's brains work this way too? Pretty much any time I'm doing something vaguely "intellectual", there are at least two things going on in my brain, the main activity and the "meta" level that's noticing how I'm processing that main activity.)

Comments

[dringle.livejournal.com]

Hello - may I add you as a friend? I'm interested in learning more from your insights on Jewish topics and I'm curious about your experiences in shul. :-)

[ironangel]

that is, in fact, how my brain works. except that I have ADHD, so there are likely 10-15 meta threads. :)

when I find thing slike this happening, I find that it helps to either "hear' my own voice in my head or move my lips silently as I speak the words. that brings the focus to the act of saying the words rather than letting them moce through my head in a stream.

does that make sense?

[cellio]

Sure! Welcome to my journal.

Brains and thinking!

[patsmor.livejournal.com]

Me, too. Especially when I'm talking to my pshrink, and the part of me that's been in therapy for 25 years is looking at how the interaction is working. Or when I'm in a working meeting (as opposed to a "let's sit around and let people read the reports they sent out yesterday" meeting, blarg) and I am participating as a member as well as watching the interpersonal relationships.

When I need to really be in the experience instead of having my attention split, I sometimes envision turning off a radio in the background, or shutting a door. Or sometimes I take a deep breath and let the mental images of whatever I'm feeling or doing (say, at the pshrink) fill my head.

I, too, didn't realize anyone else worked this way.

Re: Brains and thinking!

[cellio]

During the first summer session of the Sh'liach K'hilah program, they told us that with respect to the daily services we'd be attending (and taking turns leading), we were going to have to be both participants and observers and that they realized this would be challenging. I found myself thinking "it is? I do that all the time!". I can't attend a service and not notice how it's put together, points of technique, etc.

Thanks for the advice. I haven't tried to consiously shut down that other process, but it makes sense than an explicit act would be required.

[cellio]

That makes sense, yes. Thanks!

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

I think this happens particularly when you're a naturally analytical person who's learning a language. That is, it happened to me when I was learning Japanese--it was difficult to just sort of soak in the language without analysing every vaguely new thing for its internal structure, though I saw other people in the classes apparently doing something like that.
Of course, this isn't as much of a problem if your primary activity is learning the language rather than actually trying to use the language for something.

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

It is a rare day when I can completely focus on my davening. Especially at shul, I tend to think about shul issues, irksome people at the shul, the next task I have to do, how many people we have at which point in the minyan and who else might come, whether this person who didn't call me last night will show up, etc. It doesn't help to daven before coffee, as I did today. I do also find myself looking at minute details, especially when the rabbi is there and has been gabbai for my lehning and corrects my "va-ye-dabber" to "vay'dabber", which is a pretty subtle thing to anyone who doesn't actually speak Hebrew as a living language. If you're leading the service, catching and correcting yourself is what you do once you have the basic rhythm down. So it's hard to stop.

One reason I've heard for why we daven at breakneck speed is so that yetzer hara won't catch up with us -- the idea being that speculating on the words engages a kind of dissonance, and it can actually be destructive. At least it's good to know that even for the greatest, complete kavvanah in prayer is very hard to achieve.

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

yes, other people's brains work this way. I can usually fairly well control which one stays in the foreground, though.

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

Mine frequently works this way. The best way I've found to control it is to add another meta-level that zeroes in on some aspect of the "main" task. As in, if I were giving a lecture, I'd focus on audience response in order to distract myself from the temptation to pay attention to, say, the acoustics of the room.

mental processes...

[buoren.livejournal.com]

This distraction is a natural state of things; it's one of the first things that we try to be aware of in the mental exercise of meditation...

Here's an exercise which might be enlightening: next time you're eating, try to focus on the taste and texture of the food without going off on a tangent. When/if you do, try to bring the focus back to the food. The more practice you get pulling your focus back, the more you'll be able to lengthen the time between interrupts.

In addition, this is a marvelous way to really really enjoy the food you're eating... (incidentally this works on all sorts of other activities...)

-kevin

[dglenn.livejournal.com]

No advice, alas, just an Ugol: my brain does that.

[akitrom.livejournal.com]

Brains are, I think, supposed to do that.

The essence of repetitive (or "rote") prayers is to let your mind wander off the words you're speaking, but to "tether" your thoughts to religious issues.

(This, from someone who's said the Rosary, with its 50 "Hail Mary"s, for years.)

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

Several years back I was writing a paper on the grammar of heraldry and the analysis behind conflict checking. I asked several heralds to 'observe themselves' while doing conflict checking. None of them had any problem with either the concept or the execution. I think that's part of how a brain is supposed to think!
-- Dagonell

[cellio]

It is a rare day when I can completely focus on my davening. Especially at shul, I tend to think about [...]

Oh, me too. I think that happens to everyone. And some days it's easier to squash those distractions than other days. This feels a little different because the threads are interconnected; the one reacts to the other.

It doesn't help to daven before coffee, as I did today.

That definitely makes it harder, yes. I generally don't get caffeine beforehand either. (Does the halacha that says no breakfast until after shacharit also apply to coffee, I wonder? I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to water.)

One reason I've heard for why we daven at breakneck speed is so that yetzer hara won't catch up with us -- the idea being that speculating on the words engages a kind of dissonance, and it can actually be destructive.

On the other hand, you're required to understand what it is you're praying, too. So you have to strike this balance between that and the speculation you mention.

[cellio]

Thanks! I hadn't thought of that.

Re: mental processes...

[cellio]

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll try that; it should be educational.

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in the back of ArtScroll it says you can have coffee before shacharit, "even" with sugar and milk in it.

[grouchyoldcoot.livejournal.com]

It's a very interesting effect, and I think it happens to everyone to one degree or another. Have you ever had the two threads diverge, and then have a sort of 'interrupt' experience when they get so far apart that they can't both run on the same brain at the same time?

If I could figure out how to make the second thread start and stop, it would be a fantastic fMRI experiment to see if we could see brain activation associated with the second thread. It presumably uses the parts of the brain not heavily taxed by the main thread.

[cellio]

Have you ever had the two threads diverge, and then have a sort of 'interrupt' experience when they get so far apart that they can't both run on the same brain at the same time?

Isn't that what happens when you're sufficiently distracted by something that it jolts you? Like, you're trying to listen to a lecture but some problem from {work,home,whatever} keeps invading and eventually you realize you've lost focus on the lecture?

If I could figure out how to make the second thread start and stop, it would be a fantastic fMRI experiment to see if we could see brain activation associated with the second thread.

I can explicitly start threads. Stopping them is harder, as is preventing them from launching themselves.

Book rec?

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

You might be interested in reading The Power of Now, which has alternatively been billed to me as a psych book and as a spirituality book. It's some of each, maybe, and possibly other things as well. The author, Eckhart Tolle, talks about the mind in abstract and a person's ability to observe the mind as an independent entity. He argues that the mind is a construct that keeps people from living their lives directly, and that people should seize upon the now because it is the only thing that really exists. There are some weird ideas in the book so far, but I've also gotten some interesting psychological and spiritual realizations out of it. And this post brought it to mind, so I thought I'd share. :)

Close your eyes

[selucid.livejournal.com]

This isn't something that will be fixed in any quick kind of way.

Last week I was at a "Jewish Centre" in a rich part of toronto - Forest Hill - due to the presence of Rav Akiva Tats. The Rabbi had made an announcement after mussaf was over, which he said that he had thought of while davening. Obviously he's not perfect at focusing on the purpose of his davening either.

I think that once you get to know the words of תפילה off by heart, whether in English or Hebrew, you have to close your eyes and really try to bring up the feeling that you are speaking them, and meaning them, by your own deep down volition. Sometimes, when I am feeling extra meditative, I picture the words arising from the depths of my belly (wait a minute, words don't come from there.........) and shooting out of my mouth, directed towards their proper destination.

Whatever way you do it, I think you really have to bring your תפילה from the strict domain of the rational, and allow it to enter the emotional as well as you can.

One idea just cropped up: Why don't you try to organize a learning סדר with some people and pick apart the meanings of the different prayers? That might help quench the brain in view of involving the heart more :)

Anyway, hope that was helpful!!

- Inkhorn

Re: Book rec?

[cellio]

Thanks for the pointer.

Re: Close your eyes

[cellio]

I think that once you get to know the words of תפילה off by heart, whether in English or Hebrew, you have to close your eyes and really try to bring up the feeling that you are speaking them, and meaning them, by your own deep down volition.

That's a good point. I often do this with Sh'ma/v'ahavta, and have occasionally done it with parts of the t'filah (mostly avot and modim), but I haven't tried doing it for longer stretches.

This is when davening for myself, I mean. I'm almost always "on book" when leading, even when I have the passage memorized, because as the leader I have an extra obligation to get it right no matter what distractions might arise.

One idea just cropped up: Why don't you try to organize a learning סדר with some people and pick apart the meanings of the different prayers? That might help quench the brain in view of involving the heart more :)

That's a good idea. And I've been looking for a subject that I could plausibly teach as part of our adult-ed program (so I can get some experience doing that kind of teaching); leading a recurring study group on this subject would work well for me.