belief

[cellio]

"Everything is in the hands of heaven except the fear of heaven." Rabbi Chanina bar Chama, commenting on Deuteronomy 10:12.

One of Dani's relatives asked me a question during our visit. He wanted to know how an intelligent, rational, analytical person can believe in God. This was not hostile but inquisitive, so I didn't blow him off, but I did tell him I didn't think he would find my answer satisfying. "Try me", he said.

I believe in God because I have observed things about the world, and had experiences, for which I have found no explanation that is more satisfying.

I cannot prove to you that God exists, nor am I inclined to try. When people tried such proofs on me they were ineffective. At some level belief in God isn't rational -- yet I, a rational person, believe. You might argue that what I think I see is all in my head, some complex psychological effect. That's fine; you're free to believe that. If that were true, and I called that effect "belief in God" instead of whatever you think it is, and it resulted in me having a more satisfying life, does it matter?

Belief in God has to be personal; it cannot be meaningfully imposed from without. That's a big part of what's wrong with some fundamentalists: they seek to compel. That trick never works; you can compel behavior but not belief.

Because belief in God has to be personal, I cannot offer a meaningful proof. Even if I share the specific effects I have seen (and I am not close enough to this relative to do so, which is why I thought he would find this unsatisfying), who's to say that what I see as significant will be significant to you?

I thought I was about the least-likely person on the planet to take a leap of faith. Yet, I did. And I landed on solid ground. That's not through my own doing, really; a lot of that had to do with being open to possibilities, being willing to look and listen and introspect.

He actually liked that answer, to my surprise. This then led to a discussion of the truth of torah, but I'll save that for another time.

Comments

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

Wow. This must have been a great discussion. What you say resonates very strongly for me.

[cellio]

Thanks. It was a good conversation. Other family members might or might not agree; they were trapped in the car while we were having it. :-)

[dr-zrfq.livejournal.com]

Your reply resonates very strongly with my own. May I borrow your wording (with appropriate credit) if I should find I have need of it?

Since grad school, I have held that belief in God is rather axiomatic: it's not something one can prove (in this world anyway), and differing values of belief in God can underlie more general belief systems that may be different, but *internally consistent* each by itself. And many of my friends have widely varying beliefs in The Divine. So I do like to discuss belief systems when I've time... both to better understand other people, and to further refine my own beliefs.

[cellio]

Thanks. Certainly you may borrow my wording if the occasion arises.

Discussions like this help me refine my thinking, too. Definitely helpful.

[anniemal.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I think I understand the concept of belief a bit better than I did before your explanation. I'll read it again and think on it.

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

You can't prove the existence of God, you can't prove the nonexistence of God, there's just a little zone of belief in there that reason can't touch, it can only deal with the consequences.

Admittedly that sort of zone doesn't exist for only God--there are some other things it covers.

[rjmccall.livejournal.com]

Like the Axiom of Choice and the Continuum Hypothesis.

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

A lot of things go in that space, depending on what you mean by "prove". :) Certainly those two.

Another tihng that comes to mind is causality. Technically not demonstratable, but lots of people believe in it anyway. :)

Good answer

[rob-of-unspace.livejournal.com]

This was a good read for me on Easter. Thanks. Some of the nastygrams I've been getting lately have been "How can someone who claims to be a scientist possibly be religious?" They sort of match up with the "How can someone who claims to be a Christian possibly be a scientist?"

Thanks.

Re: Good answer

[cellio]

Thanks for the feedback. Glad it helped. Sorry to hear you're getting nastygrams, though. (I don't get people sometimes. I can see that sort of thing coming up at times in conversation, but to take the effort to write a letter?)

[indigodove.livejournal.com]

I really like your answer, and it resonates for me, too.

I've got to admit, having known you "before," I probably wouldn't have pictured you making the leap of faith. But I'm happy that you did, and that you find your life richer as a result.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Coincidentally, I've been thinking about the same issues, as it relates to my relationship with Robin.

I wrote this last night:

Not so much with theism. It's like rhythm, I think - you either have it, or you don't. You can't intellectually force yourself to faith, nor can you intellectually force yourself away from faith. Faith is that which stands, independent of reason, I think.

[cellio]

I think you're right, with one modification: things can change over time. (Maybe that's true of rhythm too; don't know.) It's not a write-once bit.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Well, it was written in a different context, which strongly implied now.

If I were to re-write it as "over time", I'd emphasize that while things can change, they can't be forced.