[SCA] horses

[cellio]

This past weekend there was an event at Cooper's Lake (AEthelmearc 10th-year celebration). I was surprised to read that the event would include equestrian activities. This is something that's been growing in the SCA in the last several years, but most sites aren't set up for horses and Cooper's Lake has not historically permitted them. (The last time I saw a horse at Cooper's Lake, it was being ridden by Morgan Elandris through a Pennsic attended by a couple thousand people.)

I'd never seen SCA equestrian activies before, so I decided to go watch. The event schedule didn't give a location, but I figured it had to be somewhere out near the battlefield and it would be visible. I'm glad we ran into someone who knew better; it was actually tucked way off in a corner of the site that I didn't even know existed, accessible via wagon. There was a wagon just leaving the battlefield, so I hopped on.

I was told there were eight horses there, though I never saw them all at once. The owners had set up pens next to their horse trailers and were camping back there (rather than in the main part of the campground). It seemed like they were having their own private (tiny) camp-out; it's probably not a good idea to leave the horses for long in an unfamiliar setting, and I saw no indication that the folks we saw there were participating in anything else at the event. I understand not wanting to have spookable half-ton horses "downtown" at an event, but I hope we can find better ways to make things a little more integrated in the future. I don't know how much of that isolation was needed for the horses versus imposed by the site.

The arena (a fenced-off ring) was set up for quintains when I was there. The SCA rightly does not do jousting (too dangerous); this is "jousting" at a target. A vertical pole has a rotating cross-piece with a small flat area (think shield); the contest is to hit that with your lance and the more times it spins, the better your score. I was surprised to learn that the biggest factor in how much spin you get is the weight of the lance -- I would have figured that half a ton of horse would dwarf a few pounds of lance or that lance cross-section would matter more than weight, but neither of those is true. (I didn't ask, but assume that where on the flat part you hit it also matters -- the farther out the better, right?)

I was surprised by how much warm-up the horses needed first. (It seemed to be for the horses more than the riders.) I watched the following sequence with one horse: first the rider walked the horse around the ring a couple times, then went around a couple more times a little faster (what's after walk, canter?). Only then did she pick up a lance, which she carried vertically while riding the horse around the ring again. (This was explained thus: anything taller than the horse is perceived as a threat, so this is to get the horse used to seeing that.) Only after a few rounds of this did the person level the lance and ride slowly toward the quintain, hitting and spinning it a couple times, all still at that one-notch-above-walk speed. I never saw a full gallop; it might not have been practical in that size ring. (I asked someone about possible top speed and he said 20mph if they were using the whole length of the ring, but the quintains were in the middle so not as fast.)

All of this warm-up was to get the horse used to something it had done a couple hours earlier. Wow. I asked one of the people how often he practices with his horse just for maintenance, and he said three times a week. That doesn't surprise me. He said is biggest challenge is winter, when sometimes it's too cold for weeks on end to do this stuff.

I saw a lot of practice but not the actual competitions (had to get back for something else at the event). I don't know when I'll next get to see this; in addition to site limitations, the SCA requires additional insurance if you want to have equestrian activities at your event, which cost smaller events won't be able to absorb. So it's got to be limited to larger events at suitable sites.

Comments

[kayre]

Walk, trot, canter, gallop. At the trot, the rhythm of the hooves is even; at the canter, you get the da-dum, da-dum rhythm. Gallop looks much like canter, only faster. Technically, at the gallop, all four hooves are off the ground briefly during each stride; at the canter, a rear hoof stays in contact until the front hooves touch down. To get even more specific, a gallop is as fast as the horse can go, with virtually no restraint on the reins; if the rider is keeping a light control on the head with the reins, that's a hand gallop.

In show situations, judges usually only call for walk, trot and canter. Kidlet totally cleaned up at one show when the judge called for a hand gallop; she was quite clearly the only rider who practiced it and was comfortable at that speed!

The warm-up issue is partly to get the horse physically warmed up and moving well-- but often it's also to get the horse listening to the rider, and working in partnership.

Space for horses? In a crowd situation, I'd want either a fenced area with just one gate, or portable stalls; ideally, stalls inside a fenced area. You've got the potential for a loose horse, and LOTS of potential for unwary people getting kicked.

I wonder if SCA chapters ever look into sharing a show venue with a regular horse show? Horse shows are always looking for ways to bring in spectators-- costume classes are popular. Plus they already have the facilities and insurance. A lot of show organizers would be delighted to add a few SCA-specific classes, if the SCA were providing all the organization for those classes-- judging, gate managers, etc.

How's that for more than you probably wanted to know? ;)

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

We're lucky enough to have a variety of equestrian events out here, with some darn good riders and the easy accessibility of NH, rural MA, and a variety of horse-friendly sites. Fun stuff to watch, and gives an answer to age-old newbie question #1: "Do you guys joust?"

[zachkessin.livejournal.com]

I was at an event maybe 10 years ago that had equestrian stuff. It was very cool. I even acted as herald for the equestrians for a bit.

[ariannawyn.livejournal.com]

Kid wrangling prevented me from getting out to visit the equestrian as I would have liked. However, I thought the activities were generally way too spread out for the event. Archery being that far up the battlefield seemed like overkill, and made for an annoying walk (since we missed the wagon). I'm told they were anticipating something like 1500-2000 people, far more than they got, though I don't know why they thought that - the actual attendance figure I heard, in the 600's, is about what I would have guessed if I was autocratting.

It's been decades since I did much riding, and I never did what these folks are doing, but the warm-ups and prep don't surprise me. Horses can be flighty creatures, and the more high-strung ones need to be handled with care. That's why a well-trained warhorse was so valuable in period. :-)

the physics of the quintain

[brokengoose.livejournal.com]

I was surprised to learn that the biggest factor in how much spin you get is the weight of the lance -- I would have figured that half a ton of horse would dwarf a few pounds of lance or that lance cross-section would matter more than weight, but neither of those is true. (I didn't ask, but assume that where on the flat part you hit it also matters -- the farther out the better, right?)

Warning: Pure speculation.

I'd guess that if you were to accurately measure the speed at the tip of the lance, you'd see a lot of variation. Add to this the rider's desire to stay on the horse and thus, the reflexive attempt to absorb the blow. More lance weight equals more lance inertia that's not absorbed. Use a mental model where the rider's torso and arms are big springs. The springs make the weight of the horse almost irrelevant.

As to the proper place to hit the target, think about a really exaggerated example. Perhaps a very heavy but well-balanced 20-foot long metal bar. Next to the pivot point, it would be very difficult to turn the bar, but if you could, the outer edge would move quite far. At the outer edge, it'd be much easier to turn, but it wouldn't go very far. You'd be limited by speed rather than strength. I'd imagine that for the quintain, the sweet spot would be as far inside as possible without jarring the lance out of the rider's hands.

Re: the physics of the quintain

[geekosaur]

SImilarly, re lance weight: I'd guess that weight of the lance is a first cut at the physics of energy transfer from the lance to the target, and a heavier lance would transfer more energy. (It's more a matter of density, though. Maximum energy transfer would be a high density and small cross-section, IIRC.)

[mikekn]

Actually, the SCA does do jousting. My friend shadowpony was working on authorizing for it just a few weeks ago. I don't know what all in entails, but I'll see if I can get one of the equestrian folks to stop over and comment on what you saw.

Re: the physics of the quintain

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

A more familiar analogy might be a baseball bat. A heavier bat is instinctively going to add more power, moreso than the weight of the batter (though that does count). It's because you have such a narrow window of time to transfer momentum from the lance to the quintain (or from the bat to the ball), before the target springs away: in that narrow section of time, you can't maintain a rigid connection between the weight of the horse and the lance, or even between the lance and yourself, and so what primarily donates its momentum is your arm and the lance. Most people don't joust with differing weights of arm, so it's the lance where the effect is seen the most. This is why bat weight (and weight distribution) are so carefully monitored. (I'm leaving out bat speed, which is an important bit too.)

Jousting technique and armor is designed to improve this transfer, by locking your arm to your hips, your hips to the saddle, and the saddle to the horse, but even so it only does so much. With a real target like a human, which won't swing away as fast, you can transfer much more of the inertia of the human and horse. This is what makes jousting so devastating when done correctly (extremely high PSI at the lance tip, continuing for a relatively long time compared to, say, an arrow). But it also means you have a high risk of being unhorsed or breaking your shoulder if you don't know what you're doing, and even if you do you and the horse will get a nasty jolt.

As for quintain targets, many of them have bulleyes drawn on them, as you're going for accuracy as well as quintain movement.

[mare-in-flames.livejournal.com]

Hiiii!!! *waves* East Kingdom equestrian marshal, here. Most of the people you saw at 10th were buddies of mine, because the Eastern Aethelmearcers ride with us a lot. Knauer asked me to drop by your blog. Happy to. :)

Distance from main site: I know this event was extra-extra-careful to do everything right because of the site, horses attending by specific invitation per horse only, so that's probably why they were shunted off so far away. The rules DO call for a separate demarcated equestrian camping area, but it doesn't have to be like that and most times isn't.

Jousting: it's a special authorization and very few of us actually do it. (Not me yet.) But it *is* fun, it's very advanced stuff and still kind of in the experimental stages. We use styrofoam lance tips that break or explode on impact. Nobody gets de-horsed (if we're doing it right).

Warm ups: you ain't kiddin'. :) Not all of it is the de-spooking process; horses' legs work hard and muscles and tendons and ligaments really benefit from as slow a warmup as possible.

Quintains: so cool. :) I haven't gotten to do enough quintain work to answer some of the postulation here; and every quintain has its own personality, too.

Horses are fun! The next time you go to an equestrian event, try volunteering to be ground crew. You'll go through a ground crew authorization process and then you can go into the ring and hand weapons to riders and stuff like that - and it *totally* gets you the best seat in the house. I should know; my horse is badly injured, so I do a lot of crewing. (And I love it, even if I don't love the reason.)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

I am a long-term herald for equestrian events. I do not ride, but I am familiar with much of what goes on.

The horses require the warm-up, for their health and safety. Also, some horses require/prefer refamiliarization with the equipment, to better perform. Horses don't like loud bangings, or stuff flying past their heads like a lance being couched.

The SCA does a crippled version of jousting, but not often and only a minority of the very few riders are authorized. A friend of mine put that program together.

The quintain - in period there would have been a lance rest on the armor of the rider, and accuracy would have been the tougher part. In the SCA there is no fixed mounting of the lance to the rider, so much of the force comes from a good and solid alignment and hit, and the riders ability to use muscles to keep the lance from twisting their arm and body - a human "shock absorber" if you will.

It is technique - I've seen an 8 year old girl do nearly as well as adults of larger mass and with larger horses. Because she was good. Technique might be affected by lance weight, but it is just part of the picture.

I always find the rings fascinating. Did you see those?

As for the camping, the site may have added restrictions, but in the past I've seen most equestrians spend a great deal of time on animal care - and that takes away from the event, largely. The animals must be warmed up, cooled down, groomed, fed, and watched. Cleaning the stalls and such also take time. Owning a horse is very demanding, and while at home one can hire out the care to a stable or staff, at events it is all YOU.

I love heralding equestrian events.

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

IIRC, the equestrian rider only adds something like $20 to the insurance for the event. Bearing in mind of course, that the one and only time I had to get the equestrian rider was 2002 or so, when I autocratted an equestrian event. It could have changed since then.

[cellio]

Thanks! And not more than I wanted to know. :-)

The warm-up issue is partly to get the horse physically warmed up and moving well-- but often it's also to get the horse listening to the rider, and working in partnership.

Oh, good point -- I was comparing it to a person warming up before exercising, but had neglected the fact that there are two parties in this case!

As for space, there was a fenced ring where the activities took place, and there were separate fenced areas for use by each owner (usually one per horse, but one family brought multiple horses). The space between the two was open; owners led (rather than riding) their horses between the two. The whole area was, I'd guess, about a mile from the rest of the event.

I wonder if SCA chapters ever look into sharing a show venue with a regular horse show?

That's a good question, and I have no idea. It hadn't occurred to me that horse shows would be open to that; thanks for pointing it out.

[cellio]

I was wondering how many people they'd gotten. Dani was something like #390 Saturday morning.

I, too, would have predicted in the 500-700 range. There was the possibility that it would draw people from War Practice, which has been getting upwards of 1000, but that's hard to judge. If they were planning for better attendance than War Practice, I think they were being overly optimistic.

The archery definitely seemed too far away. And you would have wanted the wagon to get to the equestian area with the kids; I think it was about a mile.

I've never ridden, setting aside the occasional childhood "pony ride" with the overly-docile steeds who never do more than walk slowly. Riding seems like it would be fun but also a major investment of time -- most especially for the horse care before and after.

Re: the physics of the quintain

[cellio]

The baseball-bat scenario seems different because the batter is not (significantly) moving; it's not like he's running toward the pitcher while also swinging at the ball. But you make good points about the lance, ones I hadn't thought about.

I just realized that for all that I watched this on Saturday, I didn't register one detail: is the lance held in the left hand (spear-style), or in the right and crossing the back of the horse and bracing somewhere on the right? The first seems like it would be easier to "lock in", but most people are not left-handed and maybe that matters for aiming. I just realized that, being a quasi-lefty, my instinct would be to hold the lance in my left hand, parallel to the horse, braced between my arm and body -- which is almost certainly wrong.

[cellio]

Hi! Thanks for stopping by with so much useful information!

I hadn't realized anyone was doing jousting. I assume only people who've demonstrated mastery of other skills get to try that, even with the equipment mods you've made. It does sound like fun, in a scary sort of way. :-)

Quintains: so cool. :) I haven't gotten to do enough quintain work to answer some of the postulation here; and every quintain has its own personality, too.

True -- they had two quintains set up, and they didn't behave quite the same way.

The next time you go to an equestrian event, try volunteering to be ground crew.

That never occurred to me. That is, I assumed that everyone who got anywhere near a horse was either the owner or someone specifically enlisted by the owner. I guess I would have realized that events and not just owners/riders would need staff too. Thanks for the suggestion.

[cellio]

Thanks for the information.

I didn't see the rings; they had apparently done those earlier in the day.

[cellio]

Hmm. I heard a figure 10 times that this weekend, but not directly from an autocrat who's had to deal with it. (We weren't talking about this event in particular but, rather, what it costs for an event in general.)

[cellio]

Thanks for sending mare_in_flames over!

[mikekn]

I just double checked the insurance ordering instructions. Standard SCA insurance is free, if it needs the "additional insured" it costs $50. The equestrian insurance is $50, if the site need the "additional insured" bit as well, then the total for equestrian insurance would be $100.

So worst case, you need $150 for all the SCA coverage.

[mare-in-flames.livejournal.com]

100% correct. Wow, $20... Tasha's been around a while. :) I'm not surprised it's gone up that much. The "additional insured" is standard practice in the horse world and it's a very rare site that wouldn't require it. So I usually just tell people that it's $100 if they want the short answer.

[mare-in-flames.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. We *love* our ground crew, and many hands make light work. You can't just run out and do it without talking to the marshals; you have to go through your authorization so that we know you won't kill someone, but groundcrewing is the #1 best way to start getting involved.

Are you on the Aethelmearc equestrian discussion list? It's a yahoo group and the title is aethelmearcequestrians.

And I stopped by your profile - shalom, my dear. :) Perhaps I'll meet you at Pennsic!

[cellio]

Thanks! Good to know.

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

Well, as I said, I could be wrong. I don't remember the eq rider adding a big amount to the overall costs.

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

Yup, I have. I was the autocrat for the first Les Jeux. :-)

[mare-in-flames.livejournal.com]

You durn Tarragons, always with the service work. ;)

So for history's sake and because I'm curious: what horses and riders attended the first Les Jeux?

Re: the physics of the quintain

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

However, the bat is moving laterally to impact the moving ball, while the lance is hitting a stationary object with its tip. Personally, I just tried to hit the shield dead center: less chance of the lance tip skidding off and not spinning the quintain.

The lance is held however it is comfortable for the rider. Whether it's an offside pass (across the horse's neck) or nearside depends on which hand and which side of the quintain they are trying to strike. I have seen it held with the elbow away from the body, but I'm not strong enough to do that. I've always braced it between elbow and body. You would not be wrong to hold the lance parallel to the horse.

[tashabear.livejournal.com]

Ooh, that was a while ago. I don't rightly remember everyone. I know that Sally rented several of her horses to us, and I think it was Kiena's first or second event ever. Take a look at duchytarragon.org and there are a bunch of pictures there: http://www.duchytarragon.org/photos/duchy_jeux/index_duchy_jeux.html That's me in the 4th photo, in black and white.
(The photo albums are here: http://www.duchytarragon.org/photos.html)

Funny thing... I don't think there's anyone in the household now, except maybe Isabelle and Batty, who don't know how to ride. Some are better than others (I'd say that Wolfie and I are along the lines of advanced trail riders), but we can all get on and mostly stay on.

[cellio]

I hope we meet at Pennsic. (Help me out with an SCA name or something? I'm She'erah bat Shlomo; I camp with Debatable Lands.)

Thanks for the pointer to the mailing list. Right now I'm at the level of "hey, that's pretty neat" rather than "must do this Right Now". If I start seeing equestrian activities at more events, though, that might change.

a video from a major demo in our kingdom

[rectangularcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgmF2h0bMPg

demonstrates it well!

Re: a video from a major demo in our kingdom

[cellio]

Thanks!