daf bit: Ketuvot 54

[cellio]

A mishna in Mesechet Ketuvot teaches that while the amount of a bride's ketubah is fixed by law (200 zuz for a virgin, etc), a man may nonetheless add to this amount (perhaps to entice her to accept the proposal?). The mishna teaches that, if so, this additional amount becomes mandatory; it is not an optional gift that the man (or his heirs) can withdraw. Further, Rabbi Meir ruled that a man who has relations with a woman without meeting the statutory minimum commits an act of prostitution. (54b)

Comments

[ariannawyn.livejournal.com]

Huh? It's prostitution if he has sex with a woman but *doesn't* pay?

[cellio]

Wacky, huh? And the charge is against him (usually it's the woman who gets in trouble there).

I haven't learned the pages of gemara on this yet, but here's my prediction: the ketubah is a pledge of payment if the marriage ends (not a payment up front); it's her pre-nup, so to speak. Since having relations is one of the ways (talmudically) to consumate a marriage, this is the equivalent of having the short-term benefit without the obligations that go with (support during the marriage, payment after if he divorces her). This isn't financially the same as prostitution, but it might be seen as morally equivalent (grab the short-term benefit, blow off any followup obligations).

[dsrtao]

Now, the obvious follow-up question is this: what was 200 zuz (zuzim?) worth?

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

There's a goat joke in here somewhere. :)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

There are several ways to calculate this:
#1) 200 zuz is based on 50 silver selaim/shekels mentioned in the Torah for raping/seducing a girl (age is a factor here, but I don't recall the relevant ages. Young by modern standards clearly). This is 10 times as much as the 5 selaim required for redeeming a firstborn son. The coins used for this ceremony generally cost 90-100 dollars. So 200 zuz is worth $900-$1000.

#2) 200 zuz is expected to support the woman for one year. One year's support costs several thousand dollars today. Since we see many things related to ketuba are according to the higher of the woman's standard of living or the man's, one could argue that this is one year of support similar to the standards she has been receiving to this point, so rent and food at her current standard of living.

#3) 200 zuz is enough to buy 100 goats. This is only applicable where the ketuba is signed on seder night.

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing that the word used is znus or something with the same root (zayin-nun-heh), in which case the meaning is (AFAIK) a little bit broader than "prostitution" -- something along the lines of "brazenly immoral".