daf bit: Nedarim 55

[cellio]

The mishna reports a dispute: if a man vows to abstain from grain Rabbi Meir says he is also forbidden dry Egyptian beans, but the sages say he is forbidden only the five grains. It was taught in a baraita [1] that he is also permitted rice, grist, groats, pearl-barley, and moist Egyptian beans. (My edition does not clarify what Egyptian beans are.) The gemara adds that if he vows to abstain from "the fruit of that year" he is forbidden all produce but is permitted lambs, milk, eggs, and fledglings; if, however, he vows to abstain from "the fruits of the earth", all this is forbidden to him too. (55a-b)

[1] A baraita is a teaching contemporary with the mishna that was not recorded therein. (The baraita is quoted in the gemara.)

(I had initially thought that the mishna about beans and the five grains might be a basis for the later Ashkenazi prohibition of kitniyot during Pesach, but not if rice etc is permitted in this case.)

Comments

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

A question about context: is "vows to abstain from grain" a vow that comes up often?

I'm just wondering whether vows are specific, or whether there's a collection of standard vows like standard legal situations.

Mmmm..... Meat!

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

... he vows to abstain from "the fruits of the earth", all this is forbidden to him too. (55a-b)

So what is left to eat? "I vow to starve to death," seems unenforceable on it's face.

Re: Mmmm..... Meat!

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

The fruits of the oceans, I suspect. So, fish and seaweed.
Possibly also fledged birds, if they're considered fruits of the sky.

[cellio]

Near as I can tell, the talmud spends a good chunk of this tractate discussing cases that are supposed to be quite infrequent. We are cautioned against making unnecessary vows, so vows should be infrequent. Then, these particular vows should be even less frequent. Presumably we are supposed to draw other lessons from this discussion (such as last week's discussion of gifts), but it does boggle my mind at times.

There are some standard vows (see nazarites), but they tend to be a little more focused (abstaining from wine, for instance).

Re: Mmmm..... Meat!

[cellio]

I wondered about that too, and immediately thought of "adult meat" (that is, cows rather than veal, goats rather than kids, etc). dvarin also has a good point about birds and fish.

There is also a discussion on this daf about whether mushrooms count.

Re: Mmmm..... Meat!

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Babba Kamma (chapter 8, but more specific citation is eluding me) discusses a vow to damage one's self. The only permitted version it can find is a vow to fast.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Nedarim discusses a great deal of whether or not a vow prohibiting a class of items will prohibit certain borderline cases. Does a vow against meat include poultry? What of fish, or kosher locusts?

Many of the vows are, I imagine, meant to be made conditionally as prof of believability. "If I'm cheating you in this buisness deal, I vow not to eat meat." The vower then eats some meat to prove he is not cheating.

Re: Mmmm..... Meat!

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

In an even more limiting vow, the Talmud considers one who vows himself off of sustenance (כל הזן עלי) being permitted only salt and water. However, I asked what of the fact that he will starve. The rabbi after some thought said that it could be for a specific period and not forever. Presumably a vow like this which is indefinite would be akin to a vain oath (oaths and vows are not quite the same), for which a person is given lashes.