Shabbat service times

[cellio]

Does this happen in other cities too? Can anyone explain why?

This week our main service (at 8:00) is mildly unappealing, so I thought to look for options. (That's fine.) My congregation also has a 6:00 service, but Shabbat right now starts around 7:30, so I'd rather find one a little later. The congregation where I go for weekdays has their Friday servies at 5:45 every week (save one per month). There's a newish (traditional egalitarian, unaffiliated) congregation in town I've never been to, so I looked them up -- also 5:45. Ok, what about the traditional (non-egalitarian) shul just down the street that I've been curious about? 6:30 -- ok, that's closer, but still a little surprising. Most of the explicitly-Orthodox congregations don't publish times (presumably it's candle-lighting time, give or take five minutes).

I'm surprised by the number of congregations that are doing services that far in advance of sunset. Reform congregations do not tend to feel as time-bound, so that doesn't surprise me, but I expected Conservative and "traditional" congregations to follow the sun. So do people in these congregations just add time to their Shabbat? I know you're allowed to start Shabbat early, but adding a couple hours (more in summer) is not always what you want to do. Or is the model that you go to services and get home before candle-lighting (which means you can drive, which makes the time hit less)? That feels odd too -- either you're doing the kabbalat shabbat service but not actually accepting Shabbat, or you're just doing mincha and going home, not doing a Shabbat service in community.

I do realize that in more traditional congregations the model is that the men go to services while the women stay home and prepare dinner. That's a model that doesn't work so well for a woman who prepares dinner (before Shabbat, of course) and goes to services. But I don't think that's all of it. Do the men in these congregations get home from work on Friday in time to prepare for Shabbat, walk to shul, and start a service two hours early, without being rushed or cutting out of work earlier than they would otherwise? Do they go to shul on their way home from work (and you just have to have done all your Shabbat prep that morning)? Something else?

Some of the congregations that have early services say they do it to make it easier for families with young kids to attend. That would argue against the "the men go and the women don't" model, but it still seems challenging to me. But then, I don't have kids.

Any other ideas for what might be going on here?

Comments

[cellio]

The late start time in winter is weird to me, too. When we started the 6:00 service last fall I was looking forward to it in the winter. (It had some start-up problems, including being too child-oriented for me. Some of that's been fixed, so I'll give it a try again next fall.)

5:30 does allow for people to come to shul, go home, and then have dinner, while still at a reasonable time.

How does that work, halachically? Have you accepted Shabbat by the time you leave shul (so you're walking home)? If not, what exactly do you daven at shul?

[mbarr.livejournal.com]

A) I did say that the early show is not something that's normally done in places that expect a high observance of Shabbos. (Assuming you meant the 5:30 show now, or in the summer, and not the winter..)

B) Depending on the shul, they probably do some combo of mincha, kabalat shabbat, and maariv. (They may try to hit all of them to get the Kaddish folks through.) Assuming that they do KS/ Maariv, which I'd imagine they do, then yes, you'd probably have accepted shabbos on yourself. It is perfectly possible to start shabbos a few hours early. It can't start (IIRC) before mid afternoon halachikly, but that's a pretty early time, even now. So, yes, in theory, walking home. However, see (A). They're driving, for the most part, I'd bet. Unless they live next door. Literally.

[cellio]

Ah, missed the "other shuls" meaning "don't expect people to keep Shabbat". Thanks.

Yes, you can accept Shabbat early, up to the mid-afternoon time limit. I'm betting that most people who go to summer 5:30 or 6:00 services aren't doing that, which is why I wonder about apparently-traditional congregations with services that early. (The new congregation I mentioned is a break-away from the most traditional local Conservative congregation.)

[mbarr.livejournal.com]

Well, in theory, if you have a spouse at home, who's watching kids or cooking, they could not accept Shabbos until the other spouse came home. Light candles, etc.


It might be worthwhile if you have small kids. It's early enough to bring them with you to shul, and in the right kind of place, would be really nice, while one spouse got ready, or just relaxes, while the small people were out ;)

[cellio]

Well, in theory, if you have a spouse at home, who's watching kids or cooking, they could not accept Shabbos until the other spouse came home. Light candles, etc.

Aha. It seems like that would be the key. So one spouse (let's say "he") goes to shul on his way home from work, then proceeds home (driving's fine) and does his personal prep, relying on the other spouse (let's say "she") to be home while that's happening so he can accept Shabbat on her candle-lighting. If attending shul as a family is not a consideration (and she never wants to go), that would seem to work out for all involved.

(And I've met Orthodox women whose attitude toward going to shul seems to be "why would I want to do that?". I know I would be considered a little weird, were I in that community, for going. I know this from the relative sizes of the men's and women's sections at many shuls. And because I am weird in that way, I don't automatically think of things like the "don't accept Shabbat until you get home and your wife takes care of it" approach.)

Thanks!

[mbarr.livejournal.com]

Well... there are a few things.

1) In your scenario, the shul goer comes home from work, drops their money, laptop, etc. Maybe takes some of the kids with them. Drives to shul. Davens. Accepts shabbos with Kabbalat Shabbat, and Maariv. Walks home w/ other people, saying good shabbos all the while.

The non shulgoer ligths candles when they are ready, possibly a few minutes before shul is over, maybe when the shul folk walk in. That's when the rest of the house takes shabbos in.

TANSTAAFL. There's no way to drive home after davening @ Friday night services that you think are valid, and not accept shabbos restrictions upon yourself.


(NOTE: below exists in a Ortho framework. )
2) Ortho women as a whole don't need to daven at specifc times- see time bound miztvot. (that's not to say they don't have to do so, but they aren't bound as much by the timings.)
Maariv is a special case. It was an optional thing that was added later on, and only men accepted the obligation It holds all kind of interesting precendents for egal folk, but that's beside the point. Women never did accept the obligation, and thus... don't have to daven it, per se.

(you might find this interesting: http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2008-02-29.php )


Women do go to shul in large numbers in the modern ortho world, especially the more liberal side. It requires an Eruv to accomplish, though - No carrying includes babies & diaper bags. (Yes, there are ways for that to work without one.. but none of my friends would move to a place w/o an eruv, unless it was a *very* good reason.)

[ichur72.livejournal.com]

>> none of my friends would move to a place w/o an eruv, unless it was a *very* good reason

As someone with two very young children, I heartily second the sentiment.

I used to go to shul most Friday nights before my son was born. Now, I almost never go. It's just not practical (or polite) to take a 2.5-year-old and an 8-month-old who, well, act their age.

[cellio]

Oh, ok. You're not describing a work-around where the shul-goer defers accepting Shabbat. I didn't think that could work.

(So the shul-goer just leaves the car and reclaims it after Shabbat? That would work in some cities/neighborhoods, not in others.)

Women might have other reasons besides the davening to go to shul. (This woman goes for the davening, but I can imagine other reasons.) In particular, it might be the only way to be part of the community, especially if the community meme is "men do stuff together while women stay home with the kids". (I am not saying this is the meme everywhere.) In that sort of scenario, when do the women get a break and some adult conversation about torah?

[mbarr.livejournal.com]

Remember- this presupposes that someone was going to walk home from shul. The driving over only gives a few minute advantage, and probably isn't too much.
(It's a stretch - there are very few conservative shuls that have a large walking population. Almost no Reform shul w/ one. (There may be walking families @ a Reform one, but not the majority of the shul.))

The reason for the eruv lets folks leave the house, and socialze much easier on shabbos - it's not just the babies, but also being able to bring food from one house to another, or wine, etc.

Even in shuls where many of the women don't come to daven, there's frequently a bunch of folks that gather for kiddush, etc. It really depends on the population. There's a pretty big spectrum out there.

[cellio]

Yeah, the eiruv is important -- not just for kid stuff, but also for food (as you said) and the house key. (Yeah, I know about some of the key hacks that are used when there's no eiruv.)

Good point about the kiddush. Thanks for pointing that out.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Just as an example, this week, in Pittsburgh, the earliest one could accept shabbat will be 6:33, while candlelighting isn't until 7:37. On June 20 (closest to the solstice) Shabbat can come in between 7:19 & 8:35 (really 8:53, but...).