what makes a good seder?

[cellio]

On Friday a coworker asked me how my Pesach sedarim had been and I said "eh", and she said something like "that's too bad -- mine was great". Hey, I thought to myself, I didn't know you were Jewish. She saw my puzzled expression: no, she's Roman Catholic, but several years ago she asked friends if she could join their seder because she was curious, and it was great, so she does it every year now. She described some of what they did and I was drooling inside. ("I thought of you!" she said. Rub it in. :-) )

Edited to add: let me be clear that everyone involved in the sedarim I went to acted with good will. These are good people; we just have some differences in approach that are turning out to be hard. Clear? (end edit)

The thought of "how come my Roman Catholic friend gets a more fulfilling seder than I do?", combined with a recent discussion in a locked entry, leads to this question: what is it that makes a seder fulfilling for me? What elements make me come away at the end feeling that I'd been at a good seder? (I encourage y'all to chime in.)

There are, of course, lots of factors. Here are some things that matter to me; I think a seder must have most of them for me to feel satisfied. Some of these might be essential on their own and others might be more like "minimum N of these"; I'm not sure yet which are which. And I'm sure I haven't figured them all out yet; it's taken me many years of sedarim (some good, some not) to get even this far.

Some commonality of purpose. There are lots of reasons to hold a seder. Mine include recalling God bringing our people out of Egypt. (Fact or shared mythology? Doesn't matter. But either way, it has to be important.) You might think "well, duh", but there are sedarim out there that are primarily about modern Zionism, and ones held by people who don't believe in God, and ones that are so much about freedom in general that the exodus core has been lost.

I used to think that it was enough that I am there for a particular purpose, and that others' intentions don't matter. I now question that. I think some amount of this is essential for the rest to follow. We are affected by each others' moods and attitudes.

A spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. It is not sufficient to just read the fixed text of the haggadah; the seder should evoke questions (beyond "ma nishtanah", which was originally just a starting point), and people should bring things they've learned or thought about. We should be willing to pause at almost any time to have such conversations. (And, to be clear, this should not just be the dumbed-down stuff for little kids that some families do; the adults should be getting something out of this.) At the end of my ideal seder, I have learned something and taught something.

All the traditional elements are present. I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order to feel satisfied; there are parts that you can linger on or cut short, based on the people there, and that's fine to a point. Lots of people cut out the talmudic reasoning about the number of plagues, for instance. (I personally think that part is fun just because it's so over the top, but I have been overruled at every seder I've attended where I knew enough to have an opinion, so I'm used to it.) Some people object to "pour out thy wrath"; fine.

So we don't have to do everything, but if we skip sections entirely, or don't do the blessings before certain ritual elements, I feel a little out of sorts. I can compensate for dropped blessings (I know all the relevant ones and can say them for myself if the group doesn't), and that's survivable, but it's one more little nudge in the "you don't really belong here" direction. And we have to at least touch every part, I think. I've been to sedarim that end with the meal and skip the second half entirely; that doesn't work for me.

Related to this: there are zillions of haggadot out there, some very traditional and some so creative as to be nearly unrecognizable. I certainly don't insist on Artscroll and I welcome supplementary on-topic material, and it's certainly ok to take a light approach, but if the creativity gets too far out of hand that can make me feel disoriented. As with a siddur (prayer book), I should always be able to tell how what we're doing relates to the standard outline of the service.

Spending adequate time. There is a joke that the four real questions at the seder are "when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat?". I don't want to rush. It's ok to take an hour or more to get to the meal, and to spend a couple hours on the part after the meal. This shouldn't be forced, of course; if everyone is tired or out of it or something, lengthening it is not going to lead to better discussions. But we should be willing to spend time on it, and if we get into a really good discussion, we should let it run its course, even if it's 2AM when we finish. Where did you have to be the next morning anyway?

Singing. It is, after all, a festival. I want to sing. (But not that Clementine song... :-) )

There are some things that I don't think matter to me. Who's there, for instance. While it's nice to be with friends, of course, I think I can be comfortable in a seder with strangers. (Was the one time I did it.) For some people the seder is all about the family reunion; that's not true for me. (This should surprise no one.) As for children, my only concerns are in the cases where the presence of young kids causes the adults to change the seder in ways that would violate the principles above. That doesn't mean don't bring kids; it means give them a place to go (away from the table) if they're bored or sleepy or misbehaved, and don't start skipping parts to speed it up for their sake.

So, if you've read this far, what makes a seder fulfilling for you?

Comments

[zahavalaska.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

I really like your detailed list of what you want out of a seder--this year I decide, half way through a seder I was half enjoying, to lower my expectations, and then it worked for me. There were amazing, incredible components--I was at a table filled with (mostly) educated, engaged Jews. It was the first time I was at a seder where people knew all the songs, and I was excited for the opportunity to learn them better. But they also were in a hurry and sang them really fast and without much feeling, which wasn't exciting. I was hoping for something more intellectually stimulating, but I decided to let go and enjoy what I had. Second night I was at a community seder, which was, well, huge. It managed to touch on pretty much anything and the rabbi put an intellectual spin on a number of the segments, mixed in with a focus on fun. Given what I had envisioned for a community seder, it went pretty well.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Since you asked - but knowing won't help you...

As you probably know, I am an agnostic, with an active childhood Jewish identity and belief, and a current Jewish household in support of my wife and child. In many ways, I am the obverse of you. :-)

Passover was the only Jewish holiday my ex-wife and I marked during the year. It was important to her family, who were theistically resistant but culturally Jewish. Years later, when we stopped going to NYC, we had Passover seder the first night with friends and their family, who were more believing.

For me, the core of enjoyment was that everyone wanted to be there, and was genuinely glad that most everyone else was there too. The details of our "group endeavor" didn't matter, and the religious components varied wildly (Kos Maryam and an orange, for example, from a home-made Haggadah at one, the old Maxwell House Coffee Haggadah and lots of skipping at the other).

As with most things in my life, fellow-feeling was really important. That: and what became a standing joke at that local seder. :-)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Your posts always make me think... so, after my reply, I kept thinking.

What are your in-laws criteria for a successful and valuable Seder? And, do you think your presence satisfies those criteria?

[cellio]

I think "everyone wants to be there" is an important point, worth calling out from the more general "commonality of purpose". And I had entirely missed "glad that everyone else is there", which does seem important. Thanks.

What are your in-laws criteria for a successful and valuable Seder? And, do you think your presence satisfies those criteria?

I think a primary goal is that of family reunion. That makes it important for Dani to be there; I don't know about me. The father-in-law's wife's kids and their families are usually there (one skipped last year), so I guess that's a data point. (Well, they're there on their side of the family's night.) There are people who miss due to juggling multiple families (for example, my sister-in-law is divorced, so her kids aren't always at the same seder she is), but other than that, people come.

For any seder run by my sister-in-law -- which means my mother-in-law's every year and my father-in-laws' every other year -- the haggadah that her family made is important. So I'm inferring a strong nostalgia element, perhaps comparable to pulling out the family photo albums every year at Christmas dinner. (I don't know if people do that; I just made it up.) The haggadah (or photo album) provides a frame for a bunch of memories from past years. I, of course, am not part of that, and I haven't perceived an invitation to become part of it.

(My sister-in-law was open-minded and willing to add a few things to the seder that I felt were important. There were limits both on quantity and religiosity.)

Dani's mother-in-law and sister (I can't tell about his father-in-law) have strong emotional ties to secular Israel. They lived there on kibbutzim for a few years, and seem to share the political and philosophical inclinations you would expect from that. The home-made haggadah reflects that somewhat, but I can't tell if that's a first-order criterion for a good seder in their eyes.

I've tried asking Dani what his family considers important in a seder, but he can't really articulate it. So I'm left to guess here. Sigh.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

This may be me, projecting how I would feel...

But do you think they feel judged by you? Is your dissatisfaction palpable?

Do you have a "glad to be here" and "commonality of purpose" with them?

That's what I was talking about, before Pesach, when I wrote about Shalom Bayit, frankly.

I don't know if they do or don't feel as I am querying. It would be both my concern (going into it) and my concern (if I were in it).

[cellio]

(Wow, I see on rereading that the typos were stalking me last night and winning. Sorry 'bout that.)

I suspect that some of them feel intimidated by me. They're Jews because they were born to it but are pretty much secular, and here's this weirdo who chose to join (and not for a socially-conventional reason like marriage) and who actually buys into it (and seems to know a lot). That's got to be a little off-putting to them in and of itself.

That said, I think I do a decent job of not projecting dissatisfaction. (Of course, if I'm wrong I'd be the last person to know it. :-( ) My sister-in-law knows that I'm unhappy with the haggadah because we've had specific discussions about changing it; those discussions have been mediated through Dani, so I don't know exactly what's been said. And my mother-in-law has certainly picked up that I enjoy singing Hebrew songs and don't enjoy singing Yiddish songs, because last year (after discussion) I brought along some more Hebrew songs to sing. My father-in-law and I have never had a discussion about religion or the seder; I've never perceived interest from him in doing so, and I've had no reason to bring it up. Father-in-law's wife seems to care even less than he does about this stuff. (Her main concern seems to be having her own children and their families there.)

I'm glad to see most of the people. The ones I find a little wearing are also found wearing by several other attendees, so there's nothing special about me in that. I like my in-laws; we just have different religious outlooks, and in something like this it turns out to matter more than I had first thought.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of one of the first seders that Cara and I went to together. It was organized by one of the women's groups here in Pittsburgh. I was one of two men there (thankfully, the other guy was a friend of mine). The haggadah was /entirely/ replaced by women's lib propaganda. When Howard and I took our turns to read, it was laughable (he got he worst of it, describing how hard it was to flee Egypt with one child on his hip and another in his womb). But I have to say, even an experience like that is "broadening", because it allowed me to understand how others practice (and view) my religion.

>this should not just be the dumbed-down stuff for little kids
>that some families do; the adults should be getting something out of this.

I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/. The core question is "Why do we go through all this trouble?", and if you can answer that one honestly, you are a long way toward answering the question you posed at the start of your post. In my mind, the four questions and the four sons are the most important part of the seder, and it is not a coincidence that this is the part of the seder in which children play the largest role. By my interpretation (even before I had kids of my own), Pesach is /designed/ to be a holiday for teaching children. And I would say that this aspect of the seder is the most fulfilling for me.

>I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order
How ironic. I think of the "order" as critical to it being a "seder".

>Some people object to "pour out thy wrath"; fine.
Oh, I LOVE that prayer. It is so out of character for the rest of the ceremony (and the majority of our prayers). A lovely change of pace.

>we should let it run its course, even if it's 2AM when we finish
Are you willing to start before 3 stars appear? I like the traditional limit of afikomen < midnight.

>I want to sing.
This is the one area where I am most disappointed with my own upbringing. I do not have any of the traditional songs embedded deep within my memory, and they are some of the best songs in the Jewish tradition. If you would like, some time, to work out a nice harmony to "Adir Hu", let me know. It's probably my favorite religious song. (Finally, something to rival Silent Night.)

The one part of the seder that I most frequently find missing, and have added into my own seder, is a telling of the Exodus story itself. Sure, the kids watch "Prince of Egypt" and "The 10 Commandments" in the weeks before Pesach, and they could listen to the entire Torah reading and fail to understand it, but it is worth hearing the Word of God (translated into English) at the seder table, in a format that they can absorb.

[cellio]

I went to a women's seder once (perhaps put on by the same organization here in Pittsburgh). It felt somewhat off to me too, for similar reasons. I recall having a sense of it being more about mothers than women, too, which this non-parent did not relate too. No, actually, I don't find personally-resonant liberation themes in child-bearing. (Quite the opposite, actually.)

I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/.

I don't think we disagree. Note that I said it should not just be the kid-oriented stuff. The seder has to speak to four kinds of child; all the ones I've been to have done a good job with the simple child and the child who does not know how to ask, but few have done much for the wise child. I want that too. Also, I don't have kids to reflect my perspectives through, and other people's kids don't do that so well. I'm glad you have that useful jumping-off point.

(Though, all that said, a kid who actually wants to be there would make a huge difference.)

>I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order
How ironic. I think of the "order" as critical to it being a "seder".

Ack! Parse error. The intended bindings were (require...read) (in order to...), not(require...read in order) (...).

This is the one area where I am most disappointed with my own upbringing. I do not have any of the traditional songs embedded deep within my memory, and they are some of the best songs in the Jewish tradition.

As you know, I didn't have that upbringing either. I learned them from recordings and by osmosis. (I can help you if you'd like.)

If you would like, some time, to work out a nice harmony to "Adir Hu", let me know. It's probably my favorite religious song. (Finally, something to rival Silent Night.)

Sure, we could do something with that!

The one part of the seder that I most frequently find missing, and have added into my own seder, is a telling of the Exodus story itself.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why that isn't in there directly. I suppose part of it is to keep Moshe's name out of the haggadah, which I understand to have been by design. (Why? Maybe to make it really clear that this is about God? Not sure.)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Why not tell the story from Shemot (the book of Exodus)? Rav JB Soloveichik zt"l said that we use the Deuteronomy passage (which was read over first-fruits) to make it first person. Also, reading all of the story in Shemot is well, long. So the option was for depth in a short passage rather than breadth in several parashiyot worth of text. Also, as cellio pointed out, the haggada is telling us the wonderful things G-d did fopr us. By mentioning Moses a lot, it can appear that these are wonderful things Moses did, and take the emphasis off of G-d.

I know a rabbi who was asked to conducted a seder for mentally disabled children. So he said "Once there was a bad person called pharoah. He made our lives bitter like this horseradish. (Eat horseradish) Then a good G-d came and made our lives sweet like grape juice (drink grape juice...serve meal)." I think this emphasises for me the focus on G-d even more than the haggada leaving out Moses. Because Moses is a person, and much easier to understand, but to do so would be to sacrifice the message.

[cellio]

Reading all of it -- arguably the first 15 chapters or so of Sefer Sh'mot -- would be way too much, of course. The haggadah's exegesis on just a few passages is good for people who already have a good foundation -- certainly true of the folks who wrote the haggadah and the audience they had in mind -- but sails over the heads of people who lack that. (I've seen it happen.) So also reading an abridged version from Sh'mot sounds like a reasonable idea to me, if you have kids or gentiles or un-educated Jews present.

And you want to abridge it not just because it's long but because it's repetitive in places. Most of the two plagues parshiyot follow this pattern: God tells Moshe "tell Paro $condition or I will do $plague", Moshe tells Paro "God says $condition or he will do $plague", and Paro ignores $condition and God does $plague. You can trim that down for the at-the-seder teaching.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

>a kid who actually wants to be there would make a huge difference.

This year (at my sister's Lubavitch seder) I crashed at 1AM, at about the third cup. Joshua stayed up through the entire service, and he and my brother-in-law were the only ones left awake to greet Eliyahu.

Yet it would be going too far to say that he "wanted to be there". He /wanted/ to stay up past his father.

[mabfan.livejournal.com]

I wonder if you would enjoy attending a Feld family seder. They stick to the book, but then add a lot of exegesis.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Traditional text plus exegesis? Sounds good to me.

[cellio]

I expect that I would, having enjoyed Feld family seudot and Feld family Shabbat meals. (DC branch of Feld family, to clarify.)

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

Umm, non-Jews can wrangle an invite? I *do* admit I have been curious... :)
-- Dagonell

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

It is, in fact, encouraged!

I shall note once again that there are many extant medieval haggadot....

[cellio]

Yup. The year that I decided at the last minute that I needed to find a seder, I was fully prepared to play the "ha lachma anya" card if needed. :-) ("This is the bread of affliction. Let all who are hungry come and eat." Who says it's only about physical hunger?)

If I ever get to hold a seder, you're invited.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I am accustomed to understanding that "all who are hungry" refers to a physical hunger and the continuation "all who need" refers to a spiritual need (all who need a paschal sacrifice). So while satisfying a non-Jew's curiosity may not technically fit into either, it still seems to be in the spirit...maybe.

[dagonell.livejournal.com]

Call it a spiritual searching, then. I was raised *strictly* Roman Catholic, the old school 1960's brainwashing factory. The "everyone but RCs are going to burn in hell so don't even *think* about questioning your faith, just do as you're told" old school. Needless to say, I abandoned it all when I moved out of the house. Which doesn't mean that I don't need a spiritual background, merely that the one I was raised in wasn't fulfilling my needs. Is Judaism for me? Probably not, but I'm not going to rule out anything without checking it out first...

[cellio]

Yeah, a lot of that sounds familiar.

I would be happy to help you connect with folks local to you, if you would like, so you can pursue that curiosity. And if not, that's totally fine too.

[cellio]

As a host, am I obligated to include a non-Jew who asks? Strictly speaking, probably not. But I'm not sure, and I'd rather be the kind of host who welcomes people in rather than pushing them out, and for all I know this might be just the thing that's needed to send someone down a good path.

Also, lots of people have done nice things for me, sometimes going considerably out of their way, without being willing to accept anything in return. If they paid it forward, I can too.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Many people understand this to be not meant seriously anyway, much like the permission to pray with sinners of Yom Kippur (The rest of the year we are not permitting sinners to daven in our midst?) Anyone who showed up at that point in seder, welcome or not, already missed a few key parts (namely kiddush and karpas, plus seeing where the afikoman went). Also, in the days of korban pesach (passover sacrifice) you had to be signed up with your group in advance (special rule for passover sacrifice). So you couldn't show up that night and join in, you needed advance reservations. So technically, you aren't OBLIGATED to include a Jew who asks, at least for those opinions. Helping him find a seder if he wants one badly enough is certainly a good idea, but you need not feed him yourself.

[cellio]

Anyone who showed up at that point in seder, welcome or not, already missed a few key parts

Right. But if the stranger knows the seder content, he can reasonably show up at the beginning, point out that you are going to say those words later, and ask to come in. I would let him in and not ask questions about his status.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

>am I obligated to include a non-Jew who asks?

I would argue that you are obligated to do so. I cannot parse "all who are hungry" in any way that renders it exclusive to Jews. Thus, the answer you arrive at for Jews must be the same as the answer you arrive at for non-Jews. Would you invite a non-practicing Jew who was curious about how your service differs from his own? If yes, then you should invite a non-Jew who is similarly curious.

If memory serves, halacha requires that you invite all of your servants, whether they are Jewish or not, but they must be circumcised to sit at the seder table. Memory often fails to serve, however, so don't take that lying down.

Would you mind re-posting this issue as a new thread? If I post it, no one new will answer, but your posts seem to catch the attention of serious talmudic scholars (including yourself).

[magid.livejournal.com]

There is at least one halachic concern with inviting a non-Jew: one is not allowed to cook on the holiday for someone who is not Jewish. This hasn't kept me from inviting non-Jews to my seders (when I've hosted), but it has meant I did all of the actual cooking in advance.

[cellio]

I've heard of that issue. I assume that cooking food that is not, of necessity, individually portioned would also cover that case. If I'm serving individual steaks I might have a problem; if I'm serving brisket or just made a bunch of chicken pieces or something like that, where portioning is variable anyway, that shouldn't be a concern.

[magid.livejournal.com]

I don't know that there's the distinction, actually. It still means that at least some of what you're cooking is going to people who aren't Jewish.

[cellio]

I understand "cooking for the sake of a non-Jew" to mean cooking specifically for that person, as opposed to cooking food that I would have cooked anyway that a non-Jew happens to eat. But I could certainly be wrong; I haven't studied this point.

[magid.livejournal.com]

Whereas my understanding was that if a non-Jew would be eating some of the food, it was at least partly for the sake of that non-Jew.

[cellio]

I don't see anything in the plain text that limits it to Jews either. I was responding to someone giving the traditional reading of it. I don't think the traditional reading gets the last word on it, but I do want to understand it.

I believe you are correct about the servants. That might be about the household, though, and might not (halachically) extend to non-Jews from off the street.

Reposting: done. (And thanks for the compliment.)

[magid.livejournal.com]

I think you've covered the major points that make a good seder for me. I really enjoy a seder that has lots of focused discussion, and was lucky enough to have that the first night. We used the old Maxwell House haggadot, but people were thoughtful and involved, and the discussion was good. It helped that pretty much everyone there was knowledgeable; there wouldn't have been the same level of conversation had there been people who weren't at all familiar with the seder and/or ideas of exegesis, and so on.

Having people awake helps to, which is why I rather liked this year's Saturday night first seder, since it meant people were well-rested (comparatively, anyway).

[thecommanderdia.livejournal.com]

For the Judaism ignorant on among your friends, would you mind giving a little more of a rundown of just what a Seder is? Something to put your requirements a little more in context.

[cellio]

There is a decent overview at Judaism 101. Broadly, the seder is a ritualized recounting of the exodus from Egypt; it is a home ritual around a meal, not a synagogue service, in part to encourage discussion. (Also to reinforce the family element, given the commandment to "teach your children".)

[thecommanderdia.livejournal.com]

Thank you...that makes clear a fair amount of what's been discussed.

[baron-steffan.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly with your list of requirements, albeit we might disagree on the details of what the fulfillment of each might entail. In my family, I was the one with any semblance of a formal Jewish education. Don't get me wrong, though: we were not "non-religious" but rather "not especially observant". My mom lit the Shabbat candles, we observed Yarhzeits, we did Chanukah and the High Holy Days, that sort of thing. But I was the only one who could read Hebrew, for example (albeit my dad took to going to minyan later in life, anyway). My folks are gone, and I'm not close to my greater mishpocheh (family/clan), and hadn't been to a seder in too many years before Beth and I did the "community seder" at Temple haBonim (http://www.templehabonim.org) this year. So that's my context.

For my part, I want some ritualistic connection to tradition, 'cause that's what I've missed most of all. The temple used a "children's haggadah" which made sense under the circumstances: they had a lot of kids there, the rabbi was/is very engaging of them and it was very cute. We also had not a few non-Jews, including my wife. So it made sense to simplify. But I missed a couple of favorite, but somewhat obscure, bits. I always loved the "I myself, and not a Seraph..." passage, and always insisted on it at home (where, of course, I was the impresario from about age 10). But in fine, I was just happy to be at a seder at all this year.

I do find it ironic that so many non-Jews are drawn to the idea of the seder (ours or their own), and that they often take it more seriously and with a deeper sense of purpose than we do. But then (if you will forgive me the use of the allusion), I can't help thinking that the "zeal of the convert" dynamic may be at play in their interest, something I recall us discussing so many years ago.

[cellio]

I'm glad your family was able to go to a seder this year! And that you're feeling more in touch with the community in general.

I always loved the "I myself, and not a Seraph..." passage, and always insisted on it at home

Yes, I like that part too.

But then (if you will forgive me the use of the allusion), I can't help thinking that the "zeal of the convert" dynamic may be at play in their interest, something I recall us discussing so many years ago.

Yes, I expect you're right. And some Christians see it as part of their heritage (though a less-important one than some other things, I expect). But thirst for knowledge does not heed religious lines, so I'm not surprised by this. Most non-Jews don't go to, and aren't interested in, sedarim; we only see the ones who are/do.

But I was the only one who could read Hebrew, for example

Goot thing, too, since that launched a long, fascinating, and life-changing discussion. :-)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I am not so sure about commonality of purpose, but you certainly make a convincing case. I'd be delighted if people also had the goals I have in attending the seder, lest it become a tug-of-war with some pulling for more tradition, and some pulling for a quicker arrival at the meal, and some pulling towards more singing, etc.

I fully agree with the spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. I think this is probably my number one thing, because I see this as the purpose of the entire ritual. I couldn't agree with this paragraph more.

Inclusion of traditional elements: Being more traditional than you, I would like to say every word. However, between 1) wanting to say every word 2) wanting to add insights and 3) wanting to start after the appearance of 3 stars, I can imagine this would be a great burden on some people (really late meal). So this year I settled for starting the seder when Rebecca's family wanted, and then when they started the meal, at approximately the time of the earliest opinion on the stars coming out, Rebecca & I went away for 20 minutes, conducted the seder up to the meal without much besides what's printed in the haggada, and returned for the meal.

Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)? I have never seen a seder where this was the case. However, I agree that "the more one adds on to the discussion, the more praiseworthy" should be taken seriously. Many Orthodox seders end quite late (2AM is certainly not unheard of, especially if one doesn't have small children)

Singing: I like signing, but feel that it is in a sense the most disposable part here. I found the Ballad of the Four Sons this year in the Velveteen rabbi's haggada (velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2008/03/velveeen-rabbis.html) (which is what I assume you meant by "that clementine song"). I liked it, but didn't sing it at the seders this year, but did add it to my Haggada. I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it), but Who knows one and Chad Gadya are nice. However, in line with singing being a disposable part of the seder, there is a reason they appear at the end. Those looking to escape early can end with Next year in J'lem/counting the omer. I like to sing Hallel, but it wouldn't make or break my seder.

[cellio]

Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)?

I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.

Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I did not see it with assigned parts, but OK. Rebecca's family still sings "The Frog Song", which was taught in their synagogue nursery school.

I hadn't considered postponed discussion, which is certainly possible.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

>I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it)

I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.