what makes a good seder?

[cellio]

On Friday a coworker asked me how my Pesach sedarim had been and I said "eh", and she said something like "that's too bad -- mine was great". Hey, I thought to myself, I didn't know you were Jewish. She saw my puzzled expression: no, she's Roman Catholic, but several years ago she asked friends if she could join their seder because she was curious, and it was great, so she does it every year now. She described some of what they did and I was drooling inside. ("I thought of you!" she said. Rub it in. :-) )

Edited to add: let me be clear that everyone involved in the sedarim I went to acted with good will. These are good people; we just have some differences in approach that are turning out to be hard. Clear? (end edit)

The thought of "how come my Roman Catholic friend gets a more fulfilling seder than I do?", combined with a recent discussion in a locked entry, leads to this question: what is it that makes a seder fulfilling for me? What elements make me come away at the end feeling that I'd been at a good seder? (I encourage y'all to chime in.)

There are, of course, lots of factors. Here are some things that matter to me; I think a seder must have most of them for me to feel satisfied. Some of these might be essential on their own and others might be more like "minimum N of these"; I'm not sure yet which are which. And I'm sure I haven't figured them all out yet; it's taken me many years of sedarim (some good, some not) to get even this far.

Some commonality of purpose. There are lots of reasons to hold a seder. Mine include recalling God bringing our people out of Egypt. (Fact or shared mythology? Doesn't matter. But either way, it has to be important.) You might think "well, duh", but there are sedarim out there that are primarily about modern Zionism, and ones held by people who don't believe in God, and ones that are so much about freedom in general that the exodus core has been lost.

I used to think that it was enough that I am there for a particular purpose, and that others' intentions don't matter. I now question that. I think some amount of this is essential for the rest to follow. We are affected by each others' moods and attitudes.

A spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. It is not sufficient to just read the fixed text of the haggadah; the seder should evoke questions (beyond "ma nishtanah", which was originally just a starting point), and people should bring things they've learned or thought about. We should be willing to pause at almost any time to have such conversations. (And, to be clear, this should not just be the dumbed-down stuff for little kids that some families do; the adults should be getting something out of this.) At the end of my ideal seder, I have learned something and taught something.

All the traditional elements are present. I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order to feel satisfied; there are parts that you can linger on or cut short, based on the people there, and that's fine to a point. Lots of people cut out the talmudic reasoning about the number of plagues, for instance. (I personally think that part is fun just because it's so over the top, but I have been overruled at every seder I've attended where I knew enough to have an opinion, so I'm used to it.) Some people object to "pour out thy wrath"; fine.

So we don't have to do everything, but if we skip sections entirely, or don't do the blessings before certain ritual elements, I feel a little out of sorts. I can compensate for dropped blessings (I know all the relevant ones and can say them for myself if the group doesn't), and that's survivable, but it's one more little nudge in the "you don't really belong here" direction. And we have to at least touch every part, I think. I've been to sedarim that end with the meal and skip the second half entirely; that doesn't work for me.

Related to this: there are zillions of haggadot out there, some very traditional and some so creative as to be nearly unrecognizable. I certainly don't insist on Artscroll and I welcome supplementary on-topic material, and it's certainly ok to take a light approach, but if the creativity gets too far out of hand that can make me feel disoriented. As with a siddur (prayer book), I should always be able to tell how what we're doing relates to the standard outline of the service.

Spending adequate time. There is a joke that the four real questions at the seder are "when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat?". I don't want to rush. It's ok to take an hour or more to get to the meal, and to spend a couple hours on the part after the meal. This shouldn't be forced, of course; if everyone is tired or out of it or something, lengthening it is not going to lead to better discussions. But we should be willing to spend time on it, and if we get into a really good discussion, we should let it run its course, even if it's 2AM when we finish. Where did you have to be the next morning anyway?

Singing. It is, after all, a festival. I want to sing. (But not that Clementine song... :-) )

There are some things that I don't think matter to me. Who's there, for instance. While it's nice to be with friends, of course, I think I can be comfortable in a seder with strangers. (Was the one time I did it.) For some people the seder is all about the family reunion; that's not true for me. (This should surprise no one.) As for children, my only concerns are in the cases where the presence of young kids causes the adults to change the seder in ways that would violate the principles above. That doesn't mean don't bring kids; it means give them a place to go (away from the table) if they're bored or sleepy or misbehaved, and don't start skipping parts to speed it up for their sake.

So, if you've read this far, what makes a seder fulfilling for you?

Comments

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of one of the first seders that Cara and I went to together. It was organized by one of the women's groups here in Pittsburgh. I was one of two men there (thankfully, the other guy was a friend of mine). The haggadah was /entirely/ replaced by women's lib propaganda. When Howard and I took our turns to read, it was laughable (he got he worst of it, describing how hard it was to flee Egypt with one child on his hip and another in his womb). But I have to say, even an experience like that is "broadening", because it allowed me to understand how others practice (and view) my religion.

>this should not just be the dumbed-down stuff for little kids
>that some families do; the adults should be getting something out of this.

I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/. The core question is "Why do we go through all this trouble?", and if you can answer that one honestly, you are a long way toward answering the question you posed at the start of your post. In my mind, the four questions and the four sons are the most important part of the seder, and it is not a coincidence that this is the part of the seder in which children play the largest role. By my interpretation (even before I had kids of my own), Pesach is /designed/ to be a holiday for teaching children. And I would say that this aspect of the seder is the most fulfilling for me.

>I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order
How ironic. I think of the "order" as critical to it being a "seder".

>Some people object to "pour out thy wrath"; fine.
Oh, I LOVE that prayer. It is so out of character for the rest of the ceremony (and the majority of our prayers). A lovely change of pace.

>we should let it run its course, even if it's 2AM when we finish
Are you willing to start before 3 stars appear? I like the traditional limit of afikomen < midnight.

>I want to sing.
This is the one area where I am most disappointed with my own upbringing. I do not have any of the traditional songs embedded deep within my memory, and they are some of the best songs in the Jewish tradition. If you would like, some time, to work out a nice harmony to "Adir Hu", let me know. It's probably my favorite religious song. (Finally, something to rival Silent Night.)

The one part of the seder that I most frequently find missing, and have added into my own seder, is a telling of the Exodus story itself. Sure, the kids watch "Prince of Egypt" and "The 10 Commandments" in the weeks before Pesach, and they could listen to the entire Torah reading and fail to understand it, but it is worth hearing the Word of God (translated into English) at the seder table, in a format that they can absorb.

[cellio]

I went to a women's seder once (perhaps put on by the same organization here in Pittsburgh). It felt somewhat off to me too, for similar reasons. I recall having a sense of it being more about mothers than women, too, which this non-parent did not relate too. No, actually, I don't find personally-resonant liberation themes in child-bearing. (Quite the opposite, actually.)

I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/.

I don't think we disagree. Note that I said it should not just be the kid-oriented stuff. The seder has to speak to four kinds of child; all the ones I've been to have done a good job with the simple child and the child who does not know how to ask, but few have done much for the wise child. I want that too. Also, I don't have kids to reflect my perspectives through, and other people's kids don't do that so well. I'm glad you have that useful jumping-off point.

(Though, all that said, a kid who actually wants to be there would make a huge difference.)

>I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order
How ironic. I think of the "order" as critical to it being a "seder".

Ack! Parse error. The intended bindings were (require...read) (in order to...), not(require...read in order) (...).

This is the one area where I am most disappointed with my own upbringing. I do not have any of the traditional songs embedded deep within my memory, and they are some of the best songs in the Jewish tradition.

As you know, I didn't have that upbringing either. I learned them from recordings and by osmosis. (I can help you if you'd like.)

If you would like, some time, to work out a nice harmony to "Adir Hu", let me know. It's probably my favorite religious song. (Finally, something to rival Silent Night.)

Sure, we could do something with that!

The one part of the seder that I most frequently find missing, and have added into my own seder, is a telling of the Exodus story itself.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why that isn't in there directly. I suppose part of it is to keep Moshe's name out of the haggadah, which I understand to have been by design. (Why? Maybe to make it really clear that this is about God? Not sure.)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Why not tell the story from Shemot (the book of Exodus)? Rav JB Soloveichik zt"l said that we use the Deuteronomy passage (which was read over first-fruits) to make it first person. Also, reading all of the story in Shemot is well, long. So the option was for depth in a short passage rather than breadth in several parashiyot worth of text. Also, as cellio pointed out, the haggada is telling us the wonderful things G-d did fopr us. By mentioning Moses a lot, it can appear that these are wonderful things Moses did, and take the emphasis off of G-d.

I know a rabbi who was asked to conducted a seder for mentally disabled children. So he said "Once there was a bad person called pharoah. He made our lives bitter like this horseradish. (Eat horseradish) Then a good G-d came and made our lives sweet like grape juice (drink grape juice...serve meal)." I think this emphasises for me the focus on G-d even more than the haggada leaving out Moses. Because Moses is a person, and much easier to understand, but to do so would be to sacrifice the message.

[cellio]

Reading all of it -- arguably the first 15 chapters or so of Sefer Sh'mot -- would be way too much, of course. The haggadah's exegesis on just a few passages is good for people who already have a good foundation -- certainly true of the folks who wrote the haggadah and the audience they had in mind -- but sails over the heads of people who lack that. (I've seen it happen.) So also reading an abridged version from Sh'mot sounds like a reasonable idea to me, if you have kids or gentiles or un-educated Jews present.

And you want to abridge it not just because it's long but because it's repetitive in places. Most of the two plagues parshiyot follow this pattern: God tells Moshe "tell Paro $condition or I will do $plague", Moshe tells Paro "God says $condition or he will do $plague", and Paro ignores $condition and God does $plague. You can trim that down for the at-the-seder teaching.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

>a kid who actually wants to be there would make a huge difference.

This year (at my sister's Lubavitch seder) I crashed at 1AM, at about the third cup. Joshua stayed up through the entire service, and he and my brother-in-law were the only ones left awake to greet Eliyahu.

Yet it would be going too far to say that he "wanted to be there". He /wanted/ to stay up past his father.