what makes a good seder?

[cellio]

On Friday a coworker asked me how my Pesach sedarim had been and I said "eh", and she said something like "that's too bad -- mine was great". Hey, I thought to myself, I didn't know you were Jewish. She saw my puzzled expression: no, she's Roman Catholic, but several years ago she asked friends if she could join their seder because she was curious, and it was great, so she does it every year now. She described some of what they did and I was drooling inside. ("I thought of you!" she said. Rub it in. :-) )

Edited to add: let me be clear that everyone involved in the sedarim I went to acted with good will. These are good people; we just have some differences in approach that are turning out to be hard. Clear? (end edit)

The thought of "how come my Roman Catholic friend gets a more fulfilling seder than I do?", combined with a recent discussion in a locked entry, leads to this question: what is it that makes a seder fulfilling for me? What elements make me come away at the end feeling that I'd been at a good seder? (I encourage y'all to chime in.)

There are, of course, lots of factors. Here are some things that matter to me; I think a seder must have most of them for me to feel satisfied. Some of these might be essential on their own and others might be more like "minimum N of these"; I'm not sure yet which are which. And I'm sure I haven't figured them all out yet; it's taken me many years of sedarim (some good, some not) to get even this far.

Some commonality of purpose. There are lots of reasons to hold a seder. Mine include recalling God bringing our people out of Egypt. (Fact or shared mythology? Doesn't matter. But either way, it has to be important.) You might think "well, duh", but there are sedarim out there that are primarily about modern Zionism, and ones held by people who don't believe in God, and ones that are so much about freedom in general that the exodus core has been lost.

I used to think that it was enough that I am there for a particular purpose, and that others' intentions don't matter. I now question that. I think some amount of this is essential for the rest to follow. We are affected by each others' moods and attitudes.

A spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. It is not sufficient to just read the fixed text of the haggadah; the seder should evoke questions (beyond "ma nishtanah", which was originally just a starting point), and people should bring things they've learned or thought about. We should be willing to pause at almost any time to have such conversations. (And, to be clear, this should not just be the dumbed-down stuff for little kids that some families do; the adults should be getting something out of this.) At the end of my ideal seder, I have learned something and taught something.

All the traditional elements are present. I don't require that every word of the haggadah be read in order to feel satisfied; there are parts that you can linger on or cut short, based on the people there, and that's fine to a point. Lots of people cut out the talmudic reasoning about the number of plagues, for instance. (I personally think that part is fun just because it's so over the top, but I have been overruled at every seder I've attended where I knew enough to have an opinion, so I'm used to it.) Some people object to "pour out thy wrath"; fine.

So we don't have to do everything, but if we skip sections entirely, or don't do the blessings before certain ritual elements, I feel a little out of sorts. I can compensate for dropped blessings (I know all the relevant ones and can say them for myself if the group doesn't), and that's survivable, but it's one more little nudge in the "you don't really belong here" direction. And we have to at least touch every part, I think. I've been to sedarim that end with the meal and skip the second half entirely; that doesn't work for me.

Related to this: there are zillions of haggadot out there, some very traditional and some so creative as to be nearly unrecognizable. I certainly don't insist on Artscroll and I welcome supplementary on-topic material, and it's certainly ok to take a light approach, but if the creativity gets too far out of hand that can make me feel disoriented. As with a siddur (prayer book), I should always be able to tell how what we're doing relates to the standard outline of the service.

Spending adequate time. There is a joke that the four real questions at the seder are "when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat? when do we eat?". I don't want to rush. It's ok to take an hour or more to get to the meal, and to spend a couple hours on the part after the meal. This shouldn't be forced, of course; if everyone is tired or out of it or something, lengthening it is not going to lead to better discussions. But we should be willing to spend time on it, and if we get into a really good discussion, we should let it run its course, even if it's 2AM when we finish. Where did you have to be the next morning anyway?

Singing. It is, after all, a festival. I want to sing. (But not that Clementine song... :-) )

There are some things that I don't think matter to me. Who's there, for instance. While it's nice to be with friends, of course, I think I can be comfortable in a seder with strangers. (Was the one time I did it.) For some people the seder is all about the family reunion; that's not true for me. (This should surprise no one.) As for children, my only concerns are in the cases where the presence of young kids causes the adults to change the seder in ways that would violate the principles above. That doesn't mean don't bring kids; it means give them a place to go (away from the table) if they're bored or sleepy or misbehaved, and don't start skipping parts to speed it up for their sake.

So, if you've read this far, what makes a seder fulfilling for you?

Comments

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I am not so sure about commonality of purpose, but you certainly make a convincing case. I'd be delighted if people also had the goals I have in attending the seder, lest it become a tug-of-war with some pulling for more tradition, and some pulling for a quicker arrival at the meal, and some pulling towards more singing, etc.

I fully agree with the spirit of education, inquiry, and discussion. I think this is probably my number one thing, because I see this as the purpose of the entire ritual. I couldn't agree with this paragraph more.

Inclusion of traditional elements: Being more traditional than you, I would like to say every word. However, between 1) wanting to say every word 2) wanting to add insights and 3) wanting to start after the appearance of 3 stars, I can imagine this would be a great burden on some people (really late meal). So this year I settled for starting the seder when Rebecca's family wanted, and then when they started the meal, at approximately the time of the earliest opinion on the stars coming out, Rebecca & I went away for 20 minutes, conducted the seder up to the meal without much besides what's printed in the haggada, and returned for the meal.

Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)? I have never seen a seder where this was the case. However, I agree that "the more one adds on to the discussion, the more praiseworthy" should be taken seriously. Many Orthodox seders end quite late (2AM is certainly not unheard of, especially if one doesn't have small children)

Singing: I like signing, but feel that it is in a sense the most disposable part here. I found the Ballad of the Four Sons this year in the Velveteen rabbi's haggada (velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2008/03/velveeen-rabbis.html) (which is what I assume you meant by "that clementine song"). I liked it, but didn't sing it at the seders this year, but did add it to my Haggada. I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it), but Who knows one and Chad Gadya are nice. However, in line with singing being a disposable part of the seder, there is a reason they appear at the end. Those looking to escape early can end with Next year in J'lem/counting the omer. I like to sing Hallel, but it wouldn't make or break my seder.

[cellio]

Timing: How do you figure that the pre-meal portion (mostly maggid) takes longer than the post-meal section (mostly hallel)?

I was assuming arbitrary amounts of singing and discussion after the meal. Particularly if the discussion is getting long and involved during magid, people might want to pause and pick it up while the brisket is digesting. I, personally, can be flexible on timing of meals, but some people (and most kids) can't, and I'd rather postpone discussion than have people leave right after the meal and skip hallel etc.

Singing is technically disposable, but I find it adds a lot to the joy of a holiday for me. Obviously that's not universal. :-) (Yes, that was the Clementine song I meant. The version in our haggadah had assigned parts -- women sing this, men sing that, parents sing this, and the three kids with speaking parts were assigned.)

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I did not see it with assigned parts, but OK. Rebecca's family still sings "The Frog Song", which was taught in their synagogue nursery school.

I hadn't considered postponed discussion, which is certainly possible.

[byronhaverford.livejournal.com]

>I don't especially like Adir Hu (or know a tune for it)

I would propose that those two things are linked. The melody I know is probably modern, but hauntingly lovely. I would agree that the words themselves are not particularly compelling.