daf bit: Kiddushin 29

[cellio]

Some commandments are binding on men but not on women, among them the following obligations to his son: to circumcise him, to redeem him, to teach him torah, to find him a wife, and to teach him a craft. Some say: and to teach him to swim. Rabbi Yehudah said that a man who does not teach his son a craft teaches him brigandry. (29a)

Comments

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

My Hebrew really sucks, but I'm trying to piece together the bits I know: would that be literally:

Let's see. . . "אף" means "nose" or "anger", but, looking it up, I see that in Babylonian Hebrew, it is used for "also, too, but" and so forth. Weird. I assume that there's not really any connection between those.

And "השיט" means "to transport by boat," or "to sail", but, more generally means, "to float".

[there exists] [sayings]: [also] [to make him float] [in the sea]. [what] [reason]? [the life of] [him].

So, it's really not so much "swimming" as "drown-proofing". It includes the concept of "in the sea", where you'd have to deal with waves and currents, and treading water long enough to be rescued would be all you're required to do.

My father's been swimming a mile every moring in the lake recently, and recently went, with his swimming group, to do an open sea swim. He said it was amazing how much more difficult the two-and-a-half mile open sea swim was, compared to a couple miles in the lake.

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

A few minor corrections to your word-by-word translation:

"אומרים" is "ones who say" (or "sayers"), not "sayings"

"חיותיה" is "his life", so "הוא" here is not referring to the child but to the reason. In Yodish grammar, with double-brackets for the implied copula, "[the life of him] [it] [[is]]"

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Yay! I've actually been ABSORBING something from Hebrew all these years! Not much, but something.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Whups: נהר means "river", not "ocean".

So it comes out almost exactly as you translated it above:
There are ones who say: also, to make him float in the river.
What reason?
It is his life.

(I'm looking up words here (http://www.milon.co.il/), since I don't know any Babylonian Hebrew. These words that mean multiple unrelated-in-English concepts are fun . . . so "also" might actually be "nose", or "anger", and "reason" might actually be "flavor", "salt", or "preference". Heh. "There are those who say, "Nose, to make him sail on a river. What salt? It is his life.")

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

If you want to learn Talmudic Aramaic (and Mishnaic Hebrew), I highly recommend Grammar for Gemara and Practical Talmud Dictionary, both by Yitchak Frank.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I'm still trying to work my way through The First Hebrew Primer: The Adult Beginner's Path to Biblical Hebrew (http://www.amazon.com/First-Hebrew-Primer-Beginners-Biblical/dp/0939144158/ref=pd_sim_b_3).

[cellio]

Thanks for these pointers (and the discussion).

Now it all comes clear.

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

"There are those who say, "Nose, to make him sail on a river. What salt? It is his life."

Judaism has stranger precepts.

:)