daf bit: Bava Kama 60
Feb. 26th, 2009 09:00 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cellioThe mishna discusses liability in the case of one who sets a fire
(and the thorns nearby catch, and then the stacks of corn). Commenting
on this in the g'mara, Rabbi Shmuel ben Nachmani said in the name of
Rabbi Yochanan: calamity comes upon the world only when there are
wicked people in the world, but it always begins with the righteous.
When does fire break out? When there are thorns nearby. Rabbi Yosef
added: once permission has been granted to the Destroyer [I assume
this is the angel of death], he does not distinguish between righteous
and wicked, and, further, he begins with the righteous, as it says:
I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. (60a)
(I have to wonder, in saying that the righteous are consumed first, whether the rabbis are engaging in exegesis -- drawing meaning from the text -- or eisegesis -- reading meaning into it based on the many martyrs and victims of foreign conquest.)
The g'mara goes on to discuss safe travel practices to avoid bumping into the Destroyer. When there is a famine in the city the Destroyer walks boldly down the center of the road so you should stick to the sides, but when all is well he has to slink around beside the road so you should walk in the center. I wouldn't have thought that trying to dodge the Destroyer would do any good.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-02-26 02:17 pm (UTC)To your last point, I don't know this sugya but it sounds like "the Destroyer" here is not a malach sent to claim a particular person, but instead a wanton destructive force that catches what it can. Perhaps a form of demon?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-02-26 02:21 pm (UTC)(Ok, now I'm curious enough to try to figure it out from the Aramaic -- but not until tonight, because I have to run.)
parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 03:59 am (UTC)The word "malach" does not appear. I have this without vowels, so I'll both take a stab at it and give the consonants:
"Kivan sh'nitan rashot l'mashchit eino mivachin bein tzadikim l'rash'im v'lo od..."
כיון שניתן רשות למשחית אינו מבחין בין צדיקים לרשעם ולא עוד
In (Sh)NYThN I see the root "natan" (gave); I infer that this is "was given". Next we have the object; in "RShvTh" I don't see "rasha" because there's no ayin, but I'm not sure what I do see. The next word, LMShChYT, contains ShChTh, shechet, slaughter, and the lamed is an infinitive marker. So I think this is something like "once the 'rashot' (rashut? rishut? beats me) was given to slaugter..." But after all that, I'm still no closer to a translation of our key word here, except that "something to slaughter" could be a more literal form of "the slaughterer", which is kind of like "the destroyer", but I still want to consume that word somehow.
That's what I've got. How about you?
Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 12:04 pm (UTC)As-soon-as was-given-by-them permission to=the-one-who-slaughters, he-does-not distinguish(?) between righteous-ones and-wicked-ones. And-not only-that....
So, the key word is definitely mashchit and one wonders where else this is used. A nice research project for over Shabbat.
Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 02:02 pm (UTC)Oh, so mashchit is a noun! That makes the whole thing make more sense. And here I was focusing on r'shut, a word I didn't know (but that looks similar to words I do know but couldn't fit here).
A nice research project for over Shabbat.
What tools will you use to investigate that? (I ask since digital search obviously won't be one of them.) I know there are talmudic dictionaries; are also talmudic concordances? (I only know of concordances for Tanakh.)
Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 02:11 pm (UTC)R'shut is a word that you probably know without realizing it. "Birshut..." at the beginning of bentsching, "With the permission of...." Also "Reshut ha-rabbim", usually translated idiomatically as "the public domain", is actually "[the place where] the many [people] are permitted", as opposed to "reshut ha-yachid", the place where "the individual is permitted."
As for the tools, I did a grep (see below) and will print that out as a starting point; I will also read up in Jastrow, in the Steinsaltz Reference Guide, and if I have time at shul I'll look in the Encyclopedia Talmudica.
Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 09:39 pm (UTC)Thanks. And in retrospect, I should have realized that the "make-this-present-tense mem" couldn't possibly combine with the lamed infinitive marker. So yeah, it has to be something else.
R'shut: yup, you're right -- thanks for pointing it out!
As for the tools, I did a grep (see below) and will print that out as a starting point; I will also read up in Jastrow, in the Steinsaltz Reference Guide, and if I have time at shul I'll look in the Encyclopedia Talmudica.
Sound like a good path. (I've got to get myself a copy of Jastrow...) Do you know of a way to search for a root, as opposed to a particular form, to get the kind of functionality you get from a concordance? I have the Soncino edition too and I use it for searches a lot, but they seem to have to be exact matches, which is limiting. (And yes, I realize just how much of a first-world problem this is; I can hear Rashi screaming from his grave "you can search?!". :-) )
Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-03-01 08:50 pm (UTC)Re: parsing the Aramaic
Date: 2009-02-27 02:04 pm (UTC)Berachot 16b -- "umesatan hamashchit" (sounds like the Xian Satan)
Berachot 35b (twice, both as "ish mashchit"
Berachot 62b -- "mal'ach hamashchit"
Shabbat 55a (twice)
B. Kamma 60a (here we are)
Sanhedrin 102a (twice)
Makkot 20a and 20b
Zevachim 17a
Zevachim 116a
(no subject)
Date: 2009-02-26 03:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-01 08:49 pm (UTC)destroyer, esp. Mashḥith, name of a demon of destruction. Deut. R. s. 3; Yalk. Deut. 853.
So it sounds like the word is both a generic for "destroyer" or "one who slaughters" but was also used as the name of a specific demon, which would seem to fit the usage here.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-02 03:31 am (UTC)(Thanks also for the search tips.)