daf bit: Bava Batra 90

[cellio]

The rabbis consider hoarding of food (specifically fruit) to be in the same category as lending money on usury and reducing the size of one's measures (to cheat the buyer). Rab said that a person may store produce he grew himself (rather than buying); however, he may not hoard life's necessities (wine, oil, flour). Even so there is a limit; in Eretz Yisrael one may store produce for three years, to cover the current year, the sabbatical year to follow, and the year folowing that. And in years of famine one may not hoard even carob. (90b)

(If you have never eaten carob, let me just say that your theoretical understanding of the last sentence is limited. :-) )

Comments

[dsrtao]

I've eaten carob as "carob chips" and as a hot drink. I don't understand why anyone would hoard it.

[cellio]

Exactly. I've eaten the unprocessed fruit, and I can't imagine that anything was lost in the processing into chips or drinks.

[talvinamarich.livejournal.com]

This strikes me as somewhat contrary to one of the classic stories, specifically that of Yosef son of Ya'aqov. (Joseph, son of Jacob, in case I screwed that up entirely.)

Joseph advised the Pharaoh to store seven years of grain against famine.

Is the difference that one is hoarding for oneself, and that is forbidden, and the other is hoarding for the community, which may be seen as needful?

Caveat: I of course base this on the story as presented in English in the Protestant tradition. Your text may vary in some significant detail?

[geekosaur]

Something like that. It's mentioned that the priests were not required to share their grain, and strongly implied that they were hoarding. (Although it's not explained how they were able to grow anything during the famine.)

FWIW, a number of commentaries I've read claim that Yosef's actions were in fact contrary to Torah, but with the specific goal of revealing Pharaoh and the priests as corrupt. ("The plural of anecdote is not data" warning: they're all of the liberal Jewish strain, and quite possibly all derived from a single source.)

[cellio]

I think there are a few differences:

The rabbis (by my reading) seem to be concerned about the effect your hoarding has on the community. As you pointed out, in this case the hoarding was on behalf of the community. (Though they still had to purchase the grain.)

In the case of Joseph God was involved (causing the dreams and giving Joseph the ability to interpret them). That probably changes things. :-) (I don't know whether Joseph's answer is held to be from God too, or if that was his own thinking.)

Egyptians aren't obligated to Jewish law.

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

Ah, carob. The worst part of the Tu Bishvat bags they have us every year as kids. The flavor of old tires with the consistency of old tires.

[cellio]

Yup, that's where I encountered carob too. (Well, not bags and kids part, but at a Tu Bishvat seder.)

[fauxklore]

I actually like carob and thought it was the best part of the Tu B´shvat bags we got as kids. (I hate raisins and dates and figs, however.)

[cellio]

I like raisins and dates but am not a big fan of plain figs. (As ingredients they're fine.) My single encounter with carob was "educational". :-)