yes we talk like this

[cellio]

At the Giant Eagle pharmacy:

Me: Here's a prescription, and a gift card from Big Pharma that will pay for three months' worth. If I mail-order it I can get three months' worth at once; can you do that for me?

Her: I don't know; I'm just the front-desk flunky. Do you want to leave it and we'll give you as much as we're allowed to?

Me: Sure.

After I did my grocery shopping I returned.

Her: Sorry, we're only allowed to do one fill-up at a time.

Me: I understand. Have we completed this transaction, then?

Her: Um, yes?

Me: Will you take as given that I walked out through that exit and then came back in, or do I need to actually do it?

Her: Nice try, but you have to wait a month.

Oh well. I have until the end of the year to use the gift card.

---

Dani: So you can read on Shabbat; can you use a Kindle?

Me: No, because you have to manipulate the controls. It's like changing the channels on TV; technically you can watch it if it's on but you can't change the channel or volume. (Pause.) I suppose if, before Shabbat, you set in motion a smooth scroll at a readable pace, that would be like programming the lights. But it seems unworkable.

Dani: What about software that tracks your eye movements and turns the page at the right time?

Me: Seems like manipulation to me. Next you'll be bringing up sentient lightbulbs again.

Dani: How good does the programming have to be before your software qualifies as a servant?

I have no answer to that. Halacha geeks?

Comments

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

It's not at all clear to me that an e-book reader should be asur on Shabbat. I don't think the display qualifies as ktivah, I don't think manipulating the controls is boneh nor makeh bepatish (if they use capacitive switches rather than physical complete-the-circuit switches), and the display isn't incandescing nor is the battery relying on combustion, so there's no be'irah.

Culturally, we've become averse to manipulating anything electronic on Shabbat, but I doubt that this will remain an absolute over the next half-century.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity: would a wind-up Victrola (mechanical reproduction of sound, needle-to-horn) be asur? Presuming one winds it before the sun sets, and have some sort of timing mechanism to start it up.

what is "work", anyway?

[brokengoose.livejournal.com]

(Keeping in mind that I'm not Jewish...)

I'm assuming that there's some sort of "turning pages isn't work" or "turning pages is work, but study is such a worthwhile goal that it doesn't count" rule.

The capacitive versus complete-the-circuit argument is interesting to me.

Pressing the button a Kindle or other e-reader might well involve less physical effort than turning a page. I'd assume that a Kindle would be more in keeping with the "no work" mitzvah than physically turning the pages of a book.

Has anyone considered a mechanical page-turner that turns book pages with the press of a button? That seems like a similar problem that might have already been debated.

Re: what is "work", anyway?

[magid.livejournal.com]

Physical work and halachic (Jewish law) work are related, yet different, concepts. Turning the page of a paper book is not work, because it does not fall into any of the 39 categories of work. Using electricity is a more gray area, because when electricity began to be used, the rabbis of the time put it in the category of lighting or extinguishing a fire (both of which are forbidden) when one completes a circuit.

Re: what is "work", anyway?

[cellio]

As magid said, the definition of "work" is a little more complex. The rabbis derive 39 categories -- things like writing, kindling fire, sowing, baking, etc. They are mostly about "creative" work, meaning not "imaginative" but "changing the state of the world". While this overlaps with "things that make you sweat", for instance, it's a different principle.

One of those 39 categories is "striking the final hammer blow", meaning completing a work that was mostly done in advance. This is one of the arguments against electricity in the case where you use a switch to complete a circuit. Incandescent lightbulbs have the "fire" problem because of the spark, and I have heard (minority?) opinions that other kinds of lightbulbs are ok.

(Gotta run; more later.)

[cellio]

Everything you've said about e-book readers would seem to apply to computers with LCD screens too. Are there problems with reading email or blogs on Shabbat, assuming everything was turned on in advance? (Is it ok to read if you don't answer/post?)