daf bit: Avodah Zarah 69

[cellio]

The rabbis are concerned that Jews not drink wine from which a heathen has poured a libation. The mishna discusses some of the conditions under which we do or don't trust non-Jews with wine. If a heathen and a Jew are conveying the latter's wine together, it is presumed that the wine is under supervision and the wine is permitted. If the Jew leaves his wine in a wagon for a time, takes a shortcut to a nearby town, bathes, and returns, it is permitted; however, if he told the heathen that he was going to do so, and there was enough time for the heathen to bore a hole, take wine, seal it, and have the clay dry, the wine is forbidden. (69a)

It's not discussed here, but it appears that if he left but there was not enough time for the heathen to do anything to the wine, the wine is still permitted. Sometime between mishnaic times and now the rabbis got a lot more cautious, to the point of forbidding wine that has been so much as touched by gentiles unless precautions are taken. I am mildly curious about when and how that happened. (Note to my non-Jewish friends: I hold more liberally than that, though I'm cautious in SCA or fannish settings because there are actually pagans in some numbers in those communities.)

(Today's daf is actually 68 but doesn't distill well.)

Edit 2011-11-21: This entry seems to have become a spammer favorite, so I'm disabling further comments. Those of you who are real people know where to find similar posts and how to get in touch with me.

Comments

[cellio]

The issue is that the wine in question had been offered in part to another deity.

And participating in any way in idolatry is a really really big deal. Idolatry is one of only three transgressions that you are supposed to die instead of doing. Violate Shabbat or kashrut under duress? Yes, if necessary. Drink to Bacchus? No.

(By the way, a good chunk of this tractate discusses wine preparation in all its stages with respect to who can participate how much. It's not complete separation; you can hire gentiles to stomp your grapes and stuff like that. But there are both limits and requirements for supervision.)

I, too, have trouble relating to the "cooties" idea in general, just from a gentile touching a bottle. But if an unknown-to-me fan comes up to me at a con with a goblet of wine and says "this is good, try it", I will also pass, because he might have done more than touch it.

[dragonazure.livejournal.com]

Right. I didn't complete my thought, but that captures the essence of it.