daf bit: Chullin 67

[cellio]

The g'mara on today's daf is in the midst of a discussion of which insects are kosher and what happens if they infest other foods. (The question of finding half a worm in an apple is not explicitly raised, but close.) It then goes on to teach: R. Yose ben ha-Damascane says: the leviathan is a kosher fish, for it is written "his scales are his pride" and "sharpest potsherds are under him" (both from Iyov (Job) 41). "Scales", these are the scales that cover him, and "sharpest potsherds under him", these are the fins with which he propels himself. (67b)

Relatedly, Rabbi Symons and I were recently studying midrash about olam ha-ba, the world to come, including how the righteous will feast on the leviathan, which has been held since its day of creation for just that purpose.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/merle_/]

The question of finding half a worm in an apple is not explicitly raised, but close.

One quickly assumes that a passing cow ate the other half of the worm, and cuts out the offending section.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

I never thought about the kashrut of the Leviathan, but it would have to be kosher, given the known feast in the World-to-Come, yes. This would, by the way, otherwise be a proof for the argument of "non-kosher things will later become kosher in the World-to-Come", a rejection of one of Maimonides 13 principles. This is worth noting because many people think we must believe the Rambam's Principles, but simultaneously believe that the day will come when pigs are kosher.

[cellio]

I didn't know which direction the reasoning ran: we know the leviathan is kosher so it is available for that banquet, or we know the leviathan will be eaten at that banquet so it must be kosher. Or, of course, the conclusions could be independent.

Which principle does a formerly-non-kosher leviathan violate -- that God's law is true (and thus unchanging?)? I guess the Rambam wouldn't go for the make-up of an animal changing (rather than the law changing), since that would require God to intervene in the world and the Rambam isn't so into that.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

That the law is unchanging, yes. One more commonly hears this about pigs being kosher, which would be more problematic as they are explicitly mentioned as non-kosher.

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

Leviathan and Shor ha'Bor too! Which makes one wonder if in this meal in olam ha-ba they will be changing the plates in between, since, clearly Maimonides will be present at the feast and will tut tut if they don't, because fish and meat on the same plate are dangerous!

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

Not sure why you mention Maimonides specifically. The Talmud says this combination is dangerous long before Maimonides.

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

If I recall correctly Maimonides brings up the idea of tiny bones sticking to the bottom of larger chunks of meat and being a choking hazard in explanation of why it's dangerous.

[zevabe.livejournal.com]

In theory, since the Talmud says it, everyone should object. However, this may be a very sophisticated argument that you are making. Since Maimonides claims it is a real physical danger, he would argue it applies even in the Messianic Era. By contrast, the Chofetz Chaim for example would claim that once there is no tzaraat (often mistranslated as leprosy), this no longer applies. Presumably one cannot get tzaraat in the World to Come. It is, by the way, Rashi who says that what the Talmud means is that it causes tzaraat.

It is possible that in the Messianic Era, there will be tzaraat, and as such those who currently permit fish and meat on one plate would object in the Messianic Era.

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

I think that as a doctor, Maimonides was probably more worried about people choking, which, given the theoretical size of Leviatan's bones shouldn't be a real issue.

On the other hand, if HaShem is providing the banquet he may oversee any issues of this type anyhow.

[cellio]

One thing I love about LJ is that I can play host to conversations like this. :-)

[goljerp]

No, the joke is that Leviathan is for those who aren't sure they trust the meat has been shechted properly -- "I'll just have the fish"

[cellio]

It's a step up from the fruit plate, at least. :-)

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

I dunno, they could be harvesting the fruit from Gan Eden at that point. It might be quite the fruit plate. ;)

[cellio]

Good point. We know that wheat stalks will grow to the height of mountains (but don't worry; God will provide a harvesting wind for you), that a single grape will serve as a large cask of wine, and that all trees will bear fruit. Pass the napkins! :-)

[magid.livejournal.com]

With sizes like that, all I can think of is Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs....