cellio | daf bit: Erchin 13

A few days ago began a discussion of the Temple choir and band. The Levites sang when certain offerings were brought and were accompanied by instruments. A mishna on today's daf enumerates some of the instruments: there were never fewer than two trumpets and their number could be increased to infinity; there were never fewer than nine lyres and their numbers could be increased to infinity; but there was only one cymbal. The g'mara clarifies that the limit on trumpets and lyres (each) is actually 120. It also asks about one cymbal since there is a proof-text about somebody striking them together; the answer is that since the pair of cymbals performs one function, it counts as one. (13a mishna, 13b g'mara)

A note in my edition of the text (Soncino) says that some editions omit the "to infinity" language in the mishna. (I'm not fluent enough to have an opinion on that word in the Hebrew.) The g'mara doesn't appear to address the concept; it just states a number (which is based on a proof-text about 120 priests sounding trumpets).

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Now all I can think of is how challenging it must have been to keep 120 lyres in tune! I don't even want to think about the trumpets... :)

They talked about flutes a couple days ago, by the way. I'd like to see the score for this symphony. :-)

I don't have a gemara erchin (I may get a full gemara set at some point, but even the small-print only-6-volume Hebrew-only ones are expensive), but I was able to find the mishna (chapter 2, mishna 5 for reference)... My mishna set is Hebrew only and has commentary by R. Pinchas Kehati; he doesn't mention an alternate text without the "to infinity", but he does say that the gemara says the limit for the trumpets is 120, there is no limit on the lyres ("as much as they want"), and the cymbal is a single dual (see below).

Hebrew language notes:
"to infinity" is ad l'olam, literally "until to world"; l'olam is often used for describing hashem reigning forever, so "to infinity" makes sense when using it for quantity rather than time.
Kehati cites the gemara citing a pasuk from divrei hayamim b (5:12) re the limit on the trumpets - the pasuk refers to trumpets but not lyres, so I guess that would be why one is limited and the other isn't.
I would translate the mishna re the cymbal as "and the cymbal is alone". The word in the mishna is in the singular form, but Kehati cites a pasuk (probably cited in the gemara) from divrei hayamim a (16:5) re the cymbal which uses a (different shoresh) word in the dual form so it's obviously a single set of 2 (e.g. regel = singular form (one foot/leg), raglayim = dual form (2 feet/legs), regalim = plural (literally many feet/legs, used for pilgrimage holidays)).

Please let me know if I didn't translate enough for that to make sense - I don't have the best sense of your vocabulary and it's already a "late night" for me so I'm erring on the side of too little translation so there are fewer potential points of failure.

And thanks for these bits of gemara, and in this case a chance to learn a bit of mishna that I never had (I was learning mishna with a friend but we only got through 4 of the 6 sidarim, and this is in 1 of the 2 we didn't get to).

Thanks for this!

Oh, the Hebrew is ad l'olam? Ok, I'm used to that for time ("forever") and space ("the whole world"), but hadn't encountered it for counting nouns before. I guess I should have checked the Hebrew rather than assuming I wouldn't be able to read it.

Here's the daf, in case that's useful to you. And there's that "ad l'olam" just a few lines up from the bottom.

According to my Soncino, citations in the g'mara are: 2 Chron 5:12 for trumpets (ah, that's what "divrei hayamim" is -- got the literal meaning but not the reference) and 1 Chron 16:5 for cymbals. And nothing for lyres.

Thanks for the help, and I'm glad you're enjoying these. You might also enjoy

dafyomi (which I am careful to not read on a daf I'm going to do until I've done mine).

Thanks much for the link to the daf. It matches Kehati's comments (not a surprise, but nice to see confirmation).

YES! It's the earliest percussion joke in the historical record!

THOU MAYST HAVE WINDS UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, YEA, VERILY, STRINGS TOO AND, IN FACT, YOU MIGHT WANT TO DOUBLE PARTS ON THEM FOR THAT THEY DON'T CARRY SO WELL ESPECIALLY IN THE LOWER REGISTERS AND THEIR PLAYERS ARE TIMID, BUT ONE PAIR OF CYMBALS IS QUITE ENOUGH.

*falls down laughing*

*laugh*

And that guy with the bodhran? He doesn't make it across the courtyard!

daf bit: Erchin 13

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Hebrew notes

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Re: Hebrew notes

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