keep the training wheels

[cellio]

One day last week on my way out of the office, I encountered a pair of college-age women who looked a little lost. One politely asked if they could ask me something, so I said sure. (Cue ominous music.)

Her question: did I know where in the bible it says that God is female?

I said that no, it doesn't say that, or at least not the Hebrew Bible -- what any other books might claim is neither known nor interesting to me -- and that God doesn't have gender; grammar does. She then took a weird turn, talking about how the word "Elohim" (one of the words for God) is plural. I never did learn, during the conversation, where she was going with that. I told her that while the word has the appearance of being plural it is usually singular; for example, I said, in the very first verse of Genesis, we see that noun paired with a singular verb (and that continues through the rest of the creation narrative). I taught her as much Hebrew grammar as I could explain while standing on one foot.

She then said something like "but Genesis says 'male and female he created them, in his image, in his likeness' -- so God must be female too". I happen to know the Rashi on that and responded that God, master of the universe, is surely not limited by physical form, so "in his image" and "in his likeness" must mean something else, and gave Rashi's answer.

Soon after the conversation started to go in circles. She pulled out her phone to show me the verse in English (might have been King James; not sure); I pulled out my phone and said "let's look at that in the Hebrew, shall we?". The other person spoke for the first time around this point, saying something like "oh, are you Jewish? We have great respect for the Jews", which is usually a Christian lead-in for "but they've missed an important message", so I said that yes I am, sorry but I do have to get home, and good luck in their quest for knowledge and do check out the Rashi I mentioned.

I suspect that the one was tutoring the other in missionary work. It looks like they both need some more practice. Meanwhile, while I did a decent job in the counter-missionary role, I clearly didn't convince them that they were mistaken in the five minutes or so that I was willing to give this.

That was Wednesday, I think. Then tonight I came across this question on Mi Yodeya, which asks about the word "Elohim" being female, and that question links to a Christian video making an argument that uses these elements (arguing that there must be two gods, and the male one made Adam and the female one made Chava, err, Eve), so I see the connection they were failing to make now. It's still utter nonsense, but at least now I know the nature of the utter nonsense.

A comment on the Mi Yodeya post says the group behind this idea is actually a doomsday cult, but I'm not curious enough to actually research that.

I work in a usually-staid office building -- not a place I expect this kind of encounter.

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

*facepalms*

With all due irony, I have to say that in trying to spread a little knowledge you're doing the Lord's work.

[cellio]

*laugh* Thanks.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

"I taught her as much Hebrew grammar as I could explain while standing on one foot."

Bwahahahaha! (At least someone got this one.)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Also, in response to this comment: "oh, are you Jewish? We have great respect for the Jews".

I usually respond with "me too". It throws off their game.

(This arose from a former coworker who was obnoxiously evangelical at work when he said "Oh, you are Jewish? I don't mind working with Jews". I answered "me too". It stopped him in his tracks when nothing else had.)

[cellio]

Oh that's perfect! Thank you; I will add "me too" to my repertoire.

(I should also clarify that I did not actually stand on one foot while explaining Hebrew verbs to her. It was an estimate. :-) )

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

*I* would have stood on one leg only long enough to deliver a boot to the tuchis. :-)

[amaebi.livejournal.com]

Me too. :)

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

I recall reading (somebloodywhere or other) that the reason God talks to himself so much is that in the earliest version (first draft?) there were four Gods, one of them female.

Since I have no idea what to make of this or even if there is anything old enough to be useful in discussing it, I cannot reasonably ask you to. It just seemed interesting and related.

[cellio]

Huh, never heard that one. I don't put much stock in it, either that there was a first draft or that it had that particular mutation, but I guess there are people out there who believe either.

The people I encountered didn't connect these dots, but a video linked from the Mi Yodeya question makes a big deal out of the "us" in "let us make man...". That's not new; people have been asking about that "us" for millennia. This particular group believes that "us" means two so (insert logical leap) one must be male and one female, and thus every use of the word "Elohim" refers to both, so God is female. Um, no.

[osewalrus.livejournal.com]

Good answers, and always annoying to get this stuff at random.

"elohim" is masculine in terms of its conjugation, so I don't get where they are getting this "Elohim is female" stuff. Note that while "Elohim" is conjugated in the plural when referring to gods of other nations, it is conjugated in the singular when referring to God. The root word, "eil" means generally "mighty one" but when applied to God is the superlative.

Biblical grammar also has a whole bunch of idiosyncrasies and stylistic elements. i have a regular chavrutah with a friend of mine on a commentary called the Tosefet Bracha which is intensely grammatical. He will sometimes have a laundry list of a about 15 or so places in Tanach where you see a pattern that looks like a grammar violation but isn't because it is a stylistic form.

[cellio]

Apparently, in a step not shown, they decide that "Elohim" is plural because it says "let us make man..." -- never mind all the singular verbs! -- and, in another step not shown, that if it's plural then there must be both male and female, so God is female. I am not making this up. The people I met didn't make the "us" connection, leaving me confused about what their plural claims had to do with their feminine claims. As I said, I think they're probably beginners, or insufficiently trained in their marketing task in any case.

And yes, singular "Elohim" means our one God; plural "elohim" means the concept of gods more generally. It's usually pretty clear from the text, if nothing else because the verbs are so conveniently conjugated for number, gender, and person.

Tosefet Bracha sounds like an interesting work. I notice what seem to be oddities of this sort from time to time, but I lack sufficient knowledge to analyze them. Which probably means I lack sufficient knowledge to understand that book, but I can aspire to doing so someday.

[osewalrus.livejournal.com]

I also now have a basic rule that goes: if you don't speak biblical Hebrew, or at least Latin or Greek, please don't lecture me on what the Bible says. It is very annoying.

[cellio]

Yes. This is why I suggest looking at the Hebrew at first opportunity, but directly asking would be a faster filter. So far nobody who's approached me on the street (or come to my door) has had any knowledge of Hebrew.

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

I like that rule.

(I cannot lecture on it, but I cannot refrain from wild speculations on any and every subject; they are my sole source of income!)

[sethg]

The second-to-most-recent time that door-to-door evangelists showed up, I just showed them an all-Hebrew Bible and said that if they wanted to talk to me about the Bible, they had to use this one.

(The most recent time, I was in the middle of davening shacharit when they knocked, so I opened the door and said something along the lines of “oy vey, have you got the wrong number”, and that was the end of it.)

[cellio]

The second-to-most-recent time that door-to-door evangelists showed up, I just showed them an all-Hebrew Bible and said that if they wanted to talk to me about the Bible, they had to use this one.

Nice!

I once got rid of some Jehovah's Witnesses by saying something like "no that's not actually what that says; let's look at it in the Hebrew (reach for book) ... oh you don't understand Hebrew? Do you at least consult multiple translations, then? No?" Once they said that they trusted their translation and didn't need to look at other sources, I said that we didn't have a common basis for discussion.

[sethg]

My current pet peeve is not so much evangelical Christians who think they can tell me what God wants because they read it in an English translation of the Christian Bible (those Christians are for some reason thin on the ground here), but evangelical atheists who rant against Christianity/Judaism in general based on an equally ignorant reading.

(The Christians, at least, can understand that even if you follow a sola scriptura theology, you still need a system of hermaneutics to read that scriptura.)

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

That's... new. Also I'm pretty sure most Christians would disclaim these guys.

Excellent work on the grammatical counters. I wish I were better at those sorts of conversations.

[cellio]

I assume you're right that most Christians would disclaim that. I mean, I'm not an expert or anything, but I've run into rather a mix of Christians over the years and this one was new to me.

I might have given the faintest impression to them that they were out of their league when I rattled off the passage I was referencing (in Hebrew) from memory (it's amazing how much that sort of thing impresses people) and then proceeded to break down the grammar for them. I didn't get the phone out until later, and I didn't actually end up deploying it. I just figured, you know, that if they were going to use their phones, I should use mine.

[amaebi.livejournal.com]

Awesome work!

I'm not surprised that the two were most likely [Christian] apocalypticists-- my experience is that "oh we have great respect for the Jews" tends to be about the restoration of Jews to Israel as the supposed precondition for the Day of the Lord.

[cellio]

That's my impression too -- it's not so much that they respect the Jews but, rather, they need us to do certain things as a stepping-stone for their version of end times. We're tools, not respected equals.

[amaebi.livejournal.com]

Yep. Too horribly true.

[amaebi.livejournal.com]

Though I should say that a year ago, when I was on a panel with an imam, a rabbi, and an evangelical Protestant about Israel, and kind of implied that view, the evangelical Protestant was clearly insulted. And I felt bad. Though I was puzzled by him: he kept talking about how much he loved Israel and going there, and said that everyone should, but didn't make any indication that he'd learned Hebrew. His church is an enormous one just a couple of miles from my house, and I pass it all the time. They hang out banners annually declaiming a Pray for Israel event, around the high holy days. But though I am curious, I am scawed to go and find out more about their practice.

[rectangularcat]

Were these ladies Asian? They come to my door frequently canvassing for a survey. It is always about whether or not I believe god is female and then they try to start a discussion and by this point, my small child is pulling me away and I shut the door. Now I see the ipad and i ask them if they are here to talk me to about god...and say no thank you. Good to know it is cultish, funny it is spreading.

[cellio]

The quieter one (who I interpreted as being trained) was Asian. I'm not sure about the one who was doing most of the talking (didn't particularly notice one way or the other).