daf bit: Ketubot 45

[cellio]

The torah (in D'varim 22) talks about the case of a man who marries a maiden, hates her, and goes the next morning to her father and says she was not a virgin, and the father objects. They bring out "the signs" (the bedding), and if his words are found to be not true, he is fined 100 pieces of silver for bringing an evil name upon her. Today's g'mara talks about this case, saying that he is always flogged as a penalty for tale-bearing (bringing an evil name upon her). However, the payment of the fine depends on them having actually had relations; if they did and he's lying then he is flogged and pays the fine, but if they didn't -- if his claim is based instead on witnesses -- then he doesn't pay the fine but he is still flogged. (45b)

We learned previously of a case where a fine isn't owed on top of a death penalty (the latter punishment suffices), but that doesn't seem to apply here -- execution precludes a fine but flogging doesn't, at least in some cases. I don't know these laws very well, sorry.

Comments

[talvinm.livejournal.com]

Who gets the money?

[cellio]

Her father -- not as progressive as another recent case where she does.

[talvinm.livejournal.com]

Beats paying it to the court, which is what I feared. That would tend to punish the woman as much as the man, as he would be unable to support her. At least she can count on her father for that support at need (in theory).

[chaos-wrangler.livejournal.com]

There's a discussion about this near the beginning of Sanhedrin (learned last year, don't remember the exact page) which discusses why the stronger penalty doesn't cancel the other one in this case, and one suggestion is that it's because they are "owed" to 2 different people. (I don't remember if that was the accepted answer.)