daf bit: Avodah Zarah 31

[cellio]

The mishna lists things that, if they belong to heathens, are forbidden to Jews. First on the list is wine, and the prohibition extends to deriving any benefit. (For example, even if you can't drink it, you might have been able to sell it. Nope.) The g'mara derives the prohibition from the verse "who did eat of the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their drink-offerings" (Deut 32:38). It then goes on to explain that boiled wine is ok because it is unfit for idolatrous offerings, but anecdotal evidence shows that not all the sages agreed with that leniency. As we reach today's daf, R' Assi says in the name of R' Yochanan that there are three kinds of wine: libation-wine (yayin nesech), from which it's forbidden to derive any benefit, ordinary heathen wine, from which it's also forbidden to derive any benefit (but the consequences are less severe if you do), and wine of an Israelite that was deposited with a heathen, which is forbidden to drink but permitted to benefit. But wait, said R' Yochanan, wine in this last category can be guarded by a seal and then it's ok. (The concern is tampering.) R' Eleazar requires a double seal. (29b-31a)

We're really particular about wine, because wine is used for sanctification (Shabbat, holidays, weddings...). It's not just a matter of what's kosher to drink. That said, I do sometimes balk a bit at the stringencies today; if, for example, the bottle of wine has been in my sight since I opened it, I can be confident that the non-Jewish guest didn't pour out a libation-offering from it. But eh, most readily-available kosher wine is mevushal (boiled) anyway, so I can follow halacha and avoid embarrassing guests at the same time. And learning about all this (many years ago) did make me re-evaluate accepting wine offered in the SCA, because some SCA people actually are neo-pagans.

Comments

[eub]

I had never heard about the issues with handling an opened wine bottle. Learned something new.

The Internet suggests to me that the mevushaling process came about specifically to 'denature' the wine for idolatrous offerings, so that it would be less spiritually fragile to work with; is that true from what you've learned?

[cellio]

I don't actually know one way or the other, sorry!

[magid]

When I'm describing the general outlines of kashrut to someone unfamiliar with the system, I talk about the things people are likely to have heard of (mixing meat/milk, shellfish, etc), then say that there are also stringencies on wine, due to a separate system involving libations and worship. It sometimes gets me odd looks, but it seems to work.

[stitchwhich]

I am Wiccan. If you were a guest in my camp, would all I'd be able to offer you to drink be already-sealed water & sodas? I have Jewish friends and have never really considered how to offer them hospitality. I am usually working day in/day out on staff but this year I'm taking a break and will have time to have friends visit.

[cellio]

I should have been more specific with my SCA comment; I was specifically thinking of home-brewers. I've almost never been offered *commercial* wine in the SCA. :-)

Now, to your question. Most drinks should be just fine, including opened bottles of pop, many beers, coffee, tea, and non-grape fruit juice. Grape products (juice and wine) are special, but even so, if the bottle is sealed and you offer it to the Jew to open, it should be fine. I'm saying "should" because stringency levels vary from group to group or person to person, so it's hard to make a blanket statement. Similarly, some won't want to drink it out of your mugs/glasses/goblets/etc because of kashrut issues; for example, some materials are more absorbent so when you drink from them you're kind of drinking a little of everything that's ever been in them. But most people in the SCA carry their own mugs etc anyway.

Finally, as someone with special dietary needs that are my problem not yours, I strive to not inconvenience or upset people trying to show me kindness. If I decline your wine I'm not going to say it's religiously inappropriate; I'll just demur. For all you know, I just can't have alcohol right now. I would only explain the halachic issues if specifically asked.