daf bit: Avodah Zarah 38

[cellio]

Last week we talked about restrictions on wine when heathens are involved. This week the talmud discusses (over several pages) other articles that, if they come from heathens, are prohibited to Jews but we can benefit from them in other ways (like selling them). They include:

• Milk which a heathen milked without an Israelite being present, because we are concerned that milk from non-kosher animals could be mixed in.

• Their bread and oil (but Rabbi permitted oil). This appears to be to impede intermingling that could lead to intermarriages. (Remember that bread is a staple of meals.)

• Stewed and preserved foods that are customarily made with wine (presumably because you can't really tell).

• Pickled minced herring, because you can't clearly identify the fish as a kosher species when it's minced.

However, a Jew may consume milk milked by a heathen if an Israelite supervised, pickled herring that wasn't minced (so you can identify the fish), and even preserved foods that they don't customarily make with wine. (35b-39b)

With the exception of the bread and oil, these restrictions are all about uncertainty about ingredients. Non-Jews wouldn't have any reason to care about the restrictions of Jewish law, after all.

Comments

[siderea]

Pickled minced herring

Is this really about garum?

[wolby]

Thank you for that wonderful diversion which spawned at least five new tabs!

[siderea]

Happy to share the mindblow.

[cellio]

Whoa. Maybe! I'd missed that post somehow. I'll admit that when I saw this in the mishna I was confused; I've never encountered pickled *minced* herring, only *sliced*. I hadn't heard of garum and its history.

[minoanmiss]

Non-Jews wouldn't have any reason to care about the restrictions of Jewish law, after all.

*opens mouth*
*thinks some more*
*shuts mouth*

[cellio]

I meant in the sense of "not relevant", not in the sense of "that's your problem not mine". For example, I never cared about whether sauces I bought to cook with contained MSG, until I had a friend with a strong MSG allergy so now it mattered and I started checking if we were eating together. I don't think the talmud is talking about non-Jews who have Jewish friends and yet don't worry about what's in the food; I think it's more like how if I go into a non-Jewish bakery it's a good bet that the pie crusts are made with lard (which I'm told is superior to other fats in that context).

In modern times we've all gotten more aware of diverse dietary needs; we probably have vegetarians to thank for pie crusts without lard starting to be available, same as we now instinctively pay attention to peanuts, transfats, and the like. I doubt this sort of concern was as prominent then.

[siderea]

I doubt this sort of concern was as prominent then.

It's not just about personal affection. One of the points I think we can take from the historical record of kosher garum is that there have always been goyisher merchants who wanted to sell things to Jews. Presumably extra-specially true in areas of high Jewish population.

My cold medication has a hechsher on it. And it doesn't even have alcohol in it. But along with being advertised as gluten free and non-drowsy making, it's safe for Orthodox Jews, at least not during Passover (has corn syrup in).

Jewish money: the same color as everybody else's money.

[minoanmiss]

This is very true, and anyway, who am I to challenge the sages? smiles wryly At any rate I will do my best to be inspired to mindffulness now.

[goljerp]

Of course, nowadays in the US there are (at least at the moment) regulatory agencies which I think would require the ingredients to be more certain. And I have a feeling that if, for example, a bottle of milk did have pig's milk mixed in, the producer would be sure to advertise that ("New! Hood Milk Mixture! NOW with 10% Pig's Milk!").

That's why I, personally, do not require milk to have kosher certification. (I'm pretty sure the Conservative movement's official position is that; even among Orthodox jews in the US, I think it's a recognized stringency to insist on "chalav yisroel" -- milk which was supervised.

[cellio]

The FDA regulates milk in the US, and I've heard that most Jewish groups here rely on that. Chalav yisrael is a thing; I see that labeling in the kosher store, so some care about the extra stringency, but like glatt it's *extra*. Outside the US it's not necessarily a stringency, though; it depends on what is regulated and how reliably.

On the other hand, I doubt the government regulates fish sauces/pastes/etc. Possibly they require labeling if it contains shellfish because of allergies, but if it otherwise contains a mix of fish types, they might not require that they be enumerated. So if I can't tell what's in it, the government doesn't impose requirements, and it could reasonably contain problematic ingredients, I can't assume it's ok.

[minoanmiss]

I didn't know this discussion turned into a fish sauce discussion! Woot!

I love fish sauce (salty and savory and meatiness-enhancing) and As You Know Bob I have reason to make sure the fish sauce I cook with does not contaminate the food and cookware my roommates need, so I've read a bunch of fish sauce labels, and they do tend to put the actual species especially on higher quality fish sauces (such as Red Boat, probably the best generally affordable one).

I am trying to type this with a not so little girl sitting on me.

More broadly, I can't swear that everything is fully labeled ever, but I do think US society is growing increasingly interested in telling people all the specifics of their food so they can deal with any restrictions, which benefits all of us.

I hope that makes sense as I type with her sitting on me.