daf bit: Avodah Zarah 38

[cellio]

Last week we talked about restrictions on wine when heathens are involved. This week the talmud discusses (over several pages) other articles that, if they come from heathens, are prohibited to Jews but we can benefit from them in other ways (like selling them). They include:

• Milk which a heathen milked without an Israelite being present, because we are concerned that milk from non-kosher animals could be mixed in.

• Their bread and oil (but Rabbi permitted oil). This appears to be to impede intermingling that could lead to intermarriages. (Remember that bread is a staple of meals.)

• Stewed and preserved foods that are customarily made with wine (presumably because you can't really tell).

• Pickled minced herring, because you can't clearly identify the fish as a kosher species when it's minced.

However, a Jew may consume milk milked by a heathen if an Israelite supervised, pickled herring that wasn't minced (so you can identify the fish), and even preserved foods that they don't customarily make with wine. (35b-39b)

With the exception of the bread and oil, these restrictions are all about uncertainty about ingredients. Non-Jews wouldn't have any reason to care about the restrictions of Jewish law, after all.

Comments

[goljerp]

Of course, nowadays in the US there are (at least at the moment) regulatory agencies which I think would require the ingredients to be more certain. And I have a feeling that if, for example, a bottle of milk did have pig's milk mixed in, the producer would be sure to advertise that ("New! Hood Milk Mixture! NOW with 10% Pig's Milk!").

That's why I, personally, do not require milk to have kosher certification. (I'm pretty sure the Conservative movement's official position is that; even among Orthodox jews in the US, I think it's a recognized stringency to insist on "chalav yisroel" -- milk which was supervised.

[cellio]

The FDA regulates milk in the US, and I've heard that most Jewish groups here rely on that. Chalav yisrael is a thing; I see that labeling in the kosher store, so some care about the extra stringency, but like glatt it's *extra*. Outside the US it's not necessarily a stringency, though; it depends on what is regulated and how reliably.

On the other hand, I doubt the government regulates fish sauces/pastes/etc. Possibly they require labeling if it contains shellfish because of allergies, but if it otherwise contains a mix of fish types, they might not require that they be enumerated. So if I can't tell what's in it, the government doesn't impose requirements, and it could reasonably contain problematic ingredients, I can't assume it's ok.

[minoanmiss]

I didn't know this discussion turned into a fish sauce discussion! Woot!

I love fish sauce (salty and savory and meatiness-enhancing) and As You Know Bob I have reason to make sure the fish sauce I cook with does not contaminate the food and cookware my roommates need, so I've read a bunch of fish sauce labels, and they do tend to put the actual species especially on higher quality fish sauces (such as Red Boat, probably the best generally affordable one).

I am trying to type this with a not so little girl sitting on me.

More broadly, I can't swear that everything is fully labeled ever, but I do think US society is growing increasingly interested in telling people all the specifics of their food so they can deal with any restrictions, which benefits all of us.

I hope that makes sense as I type with her sitting on me.