cellio: (moon-shadow)
The morning minyan has a particular person who always leads Hallel when it's included in the service (certain holiday seasons plus Rosh Chodesh, the first day(s) of every month). I lead the service on Thursdays, but if it's a Hallel day I turn it over to him at that point. A couple months ago he said "you need to start doing this"; I replied that I didn't want to usurp his role; he replied that I would do it next time. (Ok.) "Next time" is this Thursday, Rosh Chodesh Nissan. So I just ran through it; I'm comfortable with most of it, am unsure what melody to use in one place, and just plain don't know the melody he uses in one short place, but the world won't end if I just read that (and maybe I can get a quickie refresher before the service starts). Now, to see how this plan survives contact with the minyan. :-)

Err, yes, that does mean that Pesach is just over two weeks away. I'm looking forward to a seder with friends and singing. I should decide soon if I'm going to try to do something for the second night. (I don't hold it to be necessary, but it would be a learning opportunity. Hmm.)

Last week I co-led a workshop at my synagogue on a topic in prayer (the sh'ma and its blessings). Turnout was small and I felt kind of off the whole time, even though we prepared and I practiced. (The other person is a professional educator; I have no idea if she practiced, but if she didn't it didn't show.) I've received positive feedback from people who were there, but I still have the sense that I don't really know how to facilitate a discussion or teach an intimate class, though I'm a fine participant in either. (I don't know that I know how to present a lecture either, but I think I'd be on firmer ground -- but that's not what was called for here.) I'm not sure what to do about this -- the obvious answers being to teach more or teach less. (I'm leaning toward the latter but feeling like a bit of a coward for that leaning.)

Learning talmud with my rabbi and midrash with another of our rabbis continues to be quite nifty and engaging. For all that I can be nervous in a classroom (particularly if someone with superior knowledge is present), I really enjoy and hold my own in one-on-one study with people whose knowledge is vastly superior to mine. I wonder why that works like that. Sure, a lot of the comfort in one case comes from having studied with my rabbi (in various capacities) for more than ten years (!), but the other one is much newer so it's not just that. (I also wonder at what point I have the obligation to be the person with superior knowledge for someone else in a one-on-one setting.)
cellio: (star)
More midrash on the Akeidah, including what Avraham told Sarah about his plans.

Read more... )

cellio: (star)
This is the second midrash we looked at in this session. (I previously knew this one, but reading it in Hebrew was still educational.)

Read more... )

cellio: (star)
Rabbi Symons (he says I may use his name here) and I continued our one-on-one midrash study this week, continuing with the Akeidah (binding of Yitzchak). In addition, I learned some new grammar and have some new questions.

This entry covers one of the two midrashim we studied (why does God say "please"?).

Read more... )

cellio: (shira)
Last week I wrote about my first study session with our newest rabbi, but I didn't cover everything. After the midrash I previously wrote about we started a longer one.

Read more... )

cellio: (shira)
A while ago our newest rabbi said that he was agreeable to some one-on-one study. (Hey, he implied it; I didn't just ambush him out of nowhere with the question.) I said I'd like to improve my text-reading skills; he pulled out a (Hebrew) copy of Sefer Aggadah and asked if I recognized it. Sure do, I said; I have that vast collection of midrash in English. He likes midrash too, so he proposed that we study that.

We had our first session this week. This is going to be nifty! (And now I've just had to slightly rename my "study with my rabbi" tag. :-) )

Read more... )

cellio: (avatar)
LJ tags are spiffy but not as fully-featured as I'd like, and I probably haven't figured out the best way to use them yet. So this entry is something of a cross-reference; if you got here via one of the tags on this entry you might also be interested in some of the others. I'll try to update this entry over time, and eventually will create similar entries for other tag families.

Judaism: education is a catch-all bucket. Sometimes things start here and then spin off into their own tags.

Sh'liach K'hilah (LJ swallows the first apostrophe for some reason) is (was) the Reform movement's para-rabbinic program. I attended in 2004 and 2005.

Open Beit Midrash (obm) at Hebrew College. I attended in 2007. I also have a more-general Hebrew College tag that includes entries about a program called Ta Sh'ma that I attended in 2006. One of these days I might give those their own tag.

Melton = Florence Melton Program, an international two-year program of which I completed the first year in 2006-2007. (My class session got cancelled the following year. Someday I will probably return, if the scheduling works.)

Study with my rabbi is for entries related to my one-on-one study. Midrash overlaps that, covering my midrash study in particular.

NHC is a tag for the chavurah program I attended in August 2008.

Kallah is a tag for the ALEPH kallah that I'm attending in 2009.

Shalom Hartman is a tag for the Shalom Hartman Institute, a program I considered in 2008 and 2009. I'll get there some year, I expect...

cellio: (star)
Today in our talmud study my rabbi and I reached the passage in B'rachot (16b) that records the concluding prayers of several sages. The t'filah, the central prayer, has a fixed text, but there is a place to insert personal words at the end. (Over time, some of these have in turn become fixed.) On this day before Yom Kippur, let me share some of these prayers that struck me most strongly.

Read more... )

cellio: (moon)
Dear Pittsburgh water authority: could you arrange for me to have more than a trickle of water by tomorrow morning when I'm going to want to take a shower? Thanks. (A water main broke in Oakland this afternoon -- about ten hours ago, so I would have thought we'd have water pressure by now. I wonder if they're having trouble finding the shut-off valves again.)

I got my torah-reading assignment for the high holy days today. I'm reading on the second day of Rosh Hashana. The Reform movement reads the Akeidah on the first day, while traditional congregations read it on the second day. So what do we read on the second day? Creation, because Rosh Hashana is the birthday of the world. I like that. I'm reading the first three days of creation. If I can learn the high-holy-day trope in time I'll do that (it's pretty and I'd like to do it); if I can't, I can fall back to regular trope and maybe I can use that knowledge again in a few weeks for Simchat Torah. Either way works. And I can be certain that I won't have any trouble finding the beginning of the portion. :-)

Today when we studied my rabbi asked if I wanted to do something seasonal. (Sure!) So we studied the first mishna in tractate Rosh Hashana, the Rashi, and some of the gemara (more next time). He read and translated the mishna and Rashi (with occasional kibbitzing from me), and then he had me read the gemara (though he had to do a lot of the translation). That is, he had me read Aramaic without vowels. I got a lot of words wrong, but I also got a lot right; I'm starting to get the right instincts. Neat!

At work I've been trying to get some more resources for my project, and my project manager has had limited success. To my surprise, two other project managers have come to me recently to ask what I need so they can help. I'm happy for the help (especially if they can deliver), but I have the impression this isn't how it usually works. (But hey -- it's just possible I might actually get some QA! Score!)

I've been listening to the latest Ruach CD, a compilation/sampler of new Jewish music that comes out every two years. The big winner on this album for me is L'Chu N'rananah by a group called Mah Tovu. I would definitely like to hear more of their work.

Links:

Geek to geek communications, a write-up of what sounds like an interesting talk. (I'd not previously heard of either the speaker or the conference.)

Sometimes eBay is just a venue for good stories, with sales being secondary. That said, I'm impressed that she got that much -- stories do seem to sell stuff better than conventional listings. (A friend recently reported moving a piece of furniture on Craigslist by casting it as a pet-looking-for-new-home ad.)

homework

Mar. 9th, 2007 12:46 pm
cellio: (shira)
I think my rabbi and I have different perceptions of my language skills. I have homework for our next study session: a few passages from the Mishnah B'rurah, in Hebrew (I think Hebrew and not Aramaic; haven't looked closely), without vowels, in Rashi script. :-) I will do my best to rise to the challenge. Knowing that my rabbi has that much confidence in me helps, and I appreciate it when he pushes me.

A few months ago I was very surprised to find that I could usefully study g'mara (with partners) with just the Aramaic text, albeit with vowels. I didn't think I could do it without English. (The partners were essential; my vocabulary is still poor.) So it is possible that I will be able to do something with this commentary. We'll see!

cellio: (star)
After this week's talmud-study session my rabbi told me about a situation he witnessed recently, and it caught my "reason it out talmudically" fancy.

Read more... )

cellio: (menorah)
I studied with my rabbi today. When I got there he said that if it's ok with me he wants to study a different section of talmud than where we are right now. Fine with me, I said. After we laid the foundation, he raised an issue of practical application. We've done that before, but this time we argued about it more. It's a real unsettled issue in our community, he said, and he had me arguing both sides -- "ok, then if you say X, the logical response to that would be Y, and the logical response to that would be Z, and...". I don't think I came up with anything he hadn't already come up with, but he was definitely working me harder than usual, and I appreciate it.

He also asked me to do a shiva minyan tonight, and asked if I'd like to chant torah for the high holy days. (Woot!)

I feel like I've moved up to a new level. Nifty! It's not that any one of those would have been all that unusual on its own (well, maybe high-holy-day torah reading...), but the combination of them all in one 45-minute meeting was novel.

(Yes, he agreed that learning high-holy-day trope in this timeframe would be impractical, and I should use the trope I already know.)

cellio: (moon-shadow)
I led a shiva minyan tonight for the family of a congregant. He was 90 years old and his wife and two siblings (all comparable in age, or so I understand) are still alive. I know people are living longer than ever now, but that's still pretty impressive.

I think I've finally, without really thinking about it, derived the appropriate response to the family either thanking me or praising me: "I'm glad I could help". I mean, you don't want to say "happy to help", given the circumstances, but it feels like I need to say something.

There is a dynamic of cues, some subtle and some overt, when leading a service, to clue people in about when to read together, stand/sit, and so on. Must remember: nothing subtle applies to mourners. They're pre-occupied; do not make them expend cycles on the mechanics of prayer. The ones who pray regularly will know anyway; the ones who don't need the direction.

Must remember to ask my rabbi #1: does our congregation have any conventions about what to do after the service? Leave immediately, accept the offers of food, hang around for 5-10 minutes and then slip out? Not sure. I tend to do the last unless I actually know the family.

<geek> Must remember to ask my rabbi #2: why is there a chatzi kaddish between hashkiveinu and t'filah? I'm so used to skipping over it -- because we almost never get a minyan for weekday evening and it's not there (in Gates of Prayer, anyway) in the Shabbat evening service -- that it took me by surprise tonight in the special siddur for a house of mourning (which I've rarely used). On the one hand, as long as there are interruptions between ga'al yisrael and t'filah anyway (hashkiveinu, v'shamru on Shabbat) what's the harm?, but on the other hand, we don't generally use that as an excuse to compound problems. Hmm. My rabbi and I studied that passage in B'rachot not long ago (well, maybe we'll yet return to the thread) and the sages raised hashkiveinu but said nothing of kaddish. Later addition? </geek>

Short takes:

I don't really care about my hair turning silver -- I actually think it can look striking under the right circumstances -- but is it too much to ask my body for symmetry? Why is the right side of my head so much more melanin-challenged than the left side? One of life's little mysteries, I guess.

From [livejournal.com profile] cahwyguy: Google Maps is live. So far, I'm liking it a lot better than Mapquest. (Haven't given it any tough cases yet, but the directions it's given me to a couple destinations I've previously tried with MapQuest are much better.)

cellio: (moon-shadow)
Yet again, talmud study provides a jumping-off point for interesting conversation.

We were talking about why people do or don't come to services, and more broadly, why we pray. That is, do we feel directly commanded to pray a certain liturgy three times a day, the way our traditional friends do? Do we feel that this is our only method of connecting with God? If yes (to either), where is everyone? (Mind, some of our traditional friends may ask the same question.) Why does the weeknight minyan so often consist of just my rabbi and me, and what would we be doing otherwise?

My rabbi believes, and I tend to agree, that people, by and large, come to our Friday-evening services for events, not for prayer. They come for a bar mitzvah, or a baby naming, or to hear a particular speaker. There is a dedicated core, people who come nearly every week as part of the community, but at any given service they are the minority.

Contrast this, I said, with our Saturday-morning service -- the real one, not the bar-mitzvah service. We have an established community; it's pretty much the same people every week, and we're there for the service and for each other, and not for external factors like on Friday night. I asserted that people who don't come for events come for community -- maybe also for prayer, but it's the community that dominates. (After all, you can pray at home.)

(Speaking for myself, I am there on Friday nights and weekdays for both prayer and community support. While I will seek out Shabbat services if I'm away from my own synagogue, I'm not diligent about weekdays. I mean, even in town, I don't go every day. If we were to declare our weekday evening service a failure and shut it down, I wouldn't start going elsewhere. But because we have one, I support it. Our Shabbat morning service, on the other hand, is something that really means a lot to me, and if something were to threaten its existence I'd be in for the fight.)

My rabbi believes that people -- by which I think he mainly means modern Reform Jews -- are looking for three things in a prayer experience: intimacy, intensity, and authenticity. Our Shabbat morning service certainly has all three characteristics, but I think that can only happen in a strong community. I don't think you'd get that at the bar-mitzvah service. While our service does get visitors who seem to fit right in to the community (it appears to me -- some may be reading this and I invite you to speak up), it's because there is a strong foundation of an established community. Friday night also has an established community, but it's not large enough to provide intimacy and intensity for everyone.

We ended up talking a little about the question I raised here a while back of how do rabbis pray?. He pointed out the irony -- that those who are most motivated end up being the least able to actually pray in a community. This is another reason our Shabbat morning service is so valuable -- while yes, the rabbi is in charge, the service can practically run itself, and he's much freer to be "just a congregant" there.

Shavuot

May. 27th, 2004 11:02 pm
cellio: (star)
I didn't make it to the evening service (with confirmation), due to impractical timing, but I did go to the tikkun that followed. There is a tradition of staying up all night studying torah on Shavuot; our congregation doesn't do the entire night, but we usually go until about 1:30 or 2:00. (If that's not enough, you can always go over to Kollel where they go all night.)

We had a small but good group this year (peaked around 16-18). Three of the eight confirmation students joined us, and they had good insights and questions to offer. Another wanted to join us but lost an argument with her mother. Sinai, chosenness, talmud, modern midrash, and is persecution necessary? )

At morning services, after the torah and haftarah, we read the book of Ruth. I don't think I'd quite noticed before that the slacker relative, the one whose responsibility is to bail out Naomi and her family after her husband dies but who punts, doesn't even get mentioned by name. I guess some people just aren't meant to be remembered. :-)

cellio: (star)
This is going to be kind of rambly. I'm trying to record a thought stream, not make an explicit point.

Launch point: B'rachot 8a, where the Amoraim are discussing places for torah study versus places for prayer and (later commenters) whether it is appropriate to suspend study in order to pray with a minyan. That is, if you're already in the study hall and there's no minyan and it's time to pray, do you pray there or go join the minyan? Some argue that study is more important than supporting the community in the minyan. This led us to a more general discussion: the tension between supporting community values and partaking of community offerings. Read more... )

cellio: (moon)
I'm studying with my rabbi tomorrow, and I still haven't written much about last time. Oops; I meant to do that. Before we talked (briefly; we'll return to it) what God prays for, we talked about the passage on B'rachot 6b (6b3 in the Shottenstein edition) that reads as follows:

"R' Elazar said: The Holy One, blessed is He, said the entire world was created only for the sake of [the person who fears God and keeps his commandments]. R' Abba bar Kahana says [the person] is equal in importance to the entire world. R' Shimon ben Azzai, or some say R' Shimon ben Zoma, the entire world was created only to serve as an accompaniment for this person."

The footnotes expand on this: R' Elazar says the purpose of creation was to get one person who fears God and keeps his commandments, and once that state is reached everything else is superfluous. R' Abba says other people do serve a purpose, but their combined value is less than the value of the one God-fearing person. R' Shimon says the rest of creation provides for the social and material needs of that one person, so it has value, though it's still a lesser value. And the Maharal argues that the rest of humanity is there to serve this person; the one who fears God is special, rising above trivialities and focusing on what matters, and he's an example for others.

(Aside: the word used for "fear" is "yirah" or its cognates -- good ol' yud-reish-alef of which I wrote a few days ago.)

I have a problem with these statements. We are also told that we -- every single one of us -- is created b'tzeit Elo[k]im, in God's image. Somewhere in Pirke Avot, in a wonderful passage that I can't quote or cite from memory, it says that every person should remind himself that for his sake the world exists. Yet, here we have the rabbis of the talmud elevating certain people above the rest, not on the basis of something that can really be demonstrated, like scholarship, but based on an internal matter. It seems incongruous.

Now sure, I'm being colored by my post-Enlightenment modernistic ideas about human worth and so on. And also by the way that passages such as these have been interpreted by those who choose not to work (living off of society) so that they can study all their lives. (To them I say: remember the other half of "without Torah there is no bread; without bread there is no Torah".) But it still seems a challenging, risky argument to try to put forth.

Perhaps it's meant to teach humility -- "while I do my best, surely I am not the sort of person they're talking about, so I should do my best to support my betters and learn from them". And if everyone acts that way, I suppose it can work. But everyone doesn't act that way, and a lot of friction and little good can come of contests to show who's more God-fearing. After all, isn't that, fundamentally, what every single religious war is about?

So I'm still challenged to fit this statement into its proper context, and into a context in which it makes sense.

cellio: (mars)
Saturday's D&D game was a lot of fun. It was a sub-group (two characters are currently elsewhere), and we got to do a lot of role-playing and story, and some nice little character bits came out. It was quite nifty. I think being (largely) unconstrained by time helped, too -- most sessions are on weeknights and people have to worry about getting to bed at a reasonable hour. Here, we could just play until a natural stopping point. (We're at the point where we need the other two players now.)

I talked with my parents yesterday. I enthused about some of the recent loot, particularly the scanner. They said that my nephew, who had seemed utterly indifferent to the DVD we bought him, went home, watched it, and was happy. That's good to hear. The kid still needs to learn some basic manners, though, like "thank you" and at least feigning interest in gifts.

I was surprised to learn that my parents knew basically nothing about the show 1776, either stage or movie. (I said this to a friend last night who said he didn't know it either, but he didn't grow up in a musicals-intensive house in one of the 13 colonies, so that's not surprising.) I remember seeing the movie as a kid; I mistakingly thought my parents had taken me. (We also saw it on a school outing.) The CLO is doing it this summer, which is what brought this up, and now I'm thinking that Dani and I, and maybe some friends, should go. I've never seen the stage version. I worry a bit about having my illusions shattered -- some other things I remember fondly didn't work out so well on more recent viewing, and maybe I should leave well enough alone. But it's probably safe.

Study with my rabbi today was very good, in a hard-to-summarize way. Maybe there'll be a separate entry later. (Aside: according to the talmud, God prays. This prompted me to say "what and to whom?" before my rabbi could continue. We've looked at "what", and then had to stop. In a sense, that's the less-interesting question.)

Most people were back at work today. Naturally, the single person who understands the part of the software that is currently getting in my way is out for a few more days. Oops. Tomorrow I begin plaintively asking not-so-random developers "do you know anything about [module]?". :-) (It's got to be pilot error; no one gets this right on the first try near as I can tell. If I figure out what that error is, then not only can I move past it but I can also improve the documentation.)
cellio: (kitties)
One of the cats is apparently taunting Dani.

A few months ago, Baldur started going off early in the morning (6ish), meowing in the bedroom. I've been chasing him out and, if it happens a second time, throwing him out and closing the door. This has been happening on a regular basis -- not necessarily every day, but most of them.

Dani left for Origins (gaming con) on Wednesday and returned Sunday. Baldur did not do this even once during those four days. This morning, he was back to normal.

Heh. Baldur is yanking Dani's chain, it appears. I wonder why.



Sunday dinner last night was just three of us; Dani had spent the last several days around a convention full of people, so he bowed out, and the other regulars were busy with various things. So Ralph, Lori, and I sat around chatting about various things, including a fair bit of D&D geeking. (We've decided what to do about polymorph and templates.) Ralph made wonderful steaks on the grill. I've never learned the art of cooking steaks -- I can do good things with roasts, with birds, with stews and soups and chili, but steaks elude me. Ralph has the knack.

Dani did not come home from Origins with many bags of games this year. It was apparently a slow shopping year. :-) He did play some interesting games, but didn't find them for sale.

I spent some of Saturday studying the Torah portion I'm chanting next month. It's a longer portion than I would have bitten off on my own initiative, but it's managable. So far it's going fairly well, and I've internalized a couple more of the trope symbols.

Today while studying with my rabbi we came to the justification in the talmud for all of the Torah and all of the oral law having been given to Moshe at Sinai. (I actually anticipated where the argument was going, and I think my rabbi was pleased that I saw it before we got there.) I had not realized before that according to this argument all of scripture, not just all of torah, was given at Sinai. In other words, that collection includes prophets and writings. That's an idea I'm having trouble with. (Berachot 5a, for those who care.)
cellio: (star)
Today while studying with my rabbi I encountered some "interesting" reasoning patterns in the talmud.

We often see comments of the form "one who does such-and-such is worthy of a place in the world to come", or, conversely, "one who does such-and-such forfeits his place". But we don't hold that a single action either guarantees your spot or dooms you forever, so what gives?

One common approach is to view oneself -- and, perhaps, the entire world -- as teetering on a balance point at all times. A single mitzvah tips the balance for good; a single aveira (sin) tips the balance for bad. If you were to be judged at that time, that single action would have determined your fate. So each time you commit a sin you're betting on getting a chance to compensate for it. (My rabbi explained the basic argument; the conclusions are mine, so don't blame him for them.)

I saw another approach today. Tractate B'rachot (4b, page 4b4 in Shottenstein) says that one who recites Ashrei three times a day earns a place in the world to come. Why? Because, as it's explained in the gemara and later works, one who does this will surely come to understand its deep significance, and given that understanding will act accordingly, and thus will by his actions earn a place in the world to come.

I find the style of reasoning suspect. Why not just say that one who truly understands these words and acts accordingly earns a place in the world to come? Wouldn't that be more direct and more accurate?

We have a couple references to chase that might shed light on this, but we ran out of time. Next time, then.

At the end of the session he told me he enjoys studying with me, which makes me happy. I really enjoy studying with him, and would hate for it to be too one-sided. I'm looking forward to Thursday night's tikkun, too. We don't go all night, but we'll probably go until about 2am. A few years ago I went to another tikkun afterwards with the goal of going all night, but the style wasn't to my taste and going to it broke the mood that we'd achieved, so I don't do that any more. When my rabbi's done, I go home.

cellio: (star)
Questions to remember for next Talmud session:

The rabbis declare a death penalty for not saying the evening Shema. Are they really asserting that rabbinic decrees have that protection, or are they saying that the requirement for Shema is from Torah -- and if the latter, what's the citation for that particular Torah commandment being a capital case? They aren't all. (The gemara supplies several interpretations on the first question, but it's a little confusing.)

One earns a place in Olam ha-Ba (the world to come) by connecting the evening Shema and the Tefilah (Amidah, Shemona Esrei). One earns a place in Olam ha-Ba for all sorts of things; one also forfeits a place in Olam ha-Ba for all sorts of things. What's the operator precedence? Do you merely have to balance out on the good side, or are there show-stoppers? If there are show-stoppers, are there also guarantees?

The Olam ha-Ba question is similar to the idea that the sins of the father are visited onto the children, but kindness is remembered for a thousand generations. If that's true and grandpa was a lout, what is my state? (This question has actually been on the back burner for a while, and it'll probably stay there. But now I've recorded it.)
cellio: (star)
(I've been writing this in dribs and drabs over a few days, so sorry if it's choppy.)

Last week's Torah study produced an interesting conversation (which I predict will continue this week). What do we do when confronted with a Torah commandment we find distasteful? (The triggering issue isn't really important for this discussion, though we kept coming back to it.) Read more... )

This thought was queued up in the back of my brain when I met my rabbi Thursday to study and he asked me what I think of the war. Read more... )

Then we went on to study. When last we left our heroes, Rabbi Yose was standing in the ruins of the Temple having a conversation with the prophet Eliyahu. (And you thought the talmud was dry!) Read more... )

Somehow we wandered onto the subject of studying Torah for its own sake -- that God desires this behavior, and so it is salvivic even if we gain nothing practical from it. (Ah yes, I remember how we got there: there is a discussion, after the Yose part, about the prayer/study habits of King David, who some say studied all night. Some Chasidim strive to emulate him.) We then discussed why we study, as this is not the theology that either of us follows. I'm not going to share my rabbi's reasons here, but I will share my own. (Hey, he knows about this journal, though I don't know if he reads. If he wants to share his reasons, he will. :-) )Read more... )

cellio: (star)
We were supposed to study talmud again today, but never quite got there: when I walked in, my rabbi asked me what I thought of the new siddur. We talked about some of the issues there, and ended up on a hunt for the alternate R'tzei.

liturgical research ahead )

cellio: (shira)
I think talmud study has a lot in common with solving multi-variable equation sets. Today we attempted to follow a particularly twisty chain of reasoning that involved a lot of "this case equals that case" instances. We were both having trouble, and we're going to (independently) try to lay it out on paper before next time.

To give an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about, though you should assume that the details are ficticous:

Question: when is the correct time to say a certain evening prayer?
Rabbi Chanina: when priests can eat trumah (special meat).
Rabbi Akiva: when a poor man eats dinner.
Rabbi Yonatan: when a priest goes to the mikvah, which he has to do before eating trumah.
Rabbi Chanina: Yonatan is wrong, because it's not dark yet then.
Rabbi Yehoshua: when Shabbat starts.
Rabbi Meir: When a priest eats trumah and when a poor man eats dinner are the same time.
Rabbi Chanina: No it's not. When a poor man eats dinner and when Shabbat starts are the same time.
Rashi: These are all different times.

And so on. In this particular case there ended up being a lot of layers to wind and unwind, and I'm still confused by the outcome. (Yes, the subject is the time of the evening shema, and most of the positions I gave are in the discussion somewhere, though not necessarily with those names attached.)

On my way out my rabbi said that with my internet skills I can probably find someone who can tell me the answer, but I'd actually prefer the challenge of working it out. I don't need the answer; I do need to develop the skill.

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