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  <title>Monica</title>
  <link>https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/</link>
  <description>Monica - Dreamwidth Studios</description>
  <lastBuildDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:32:46 GMT</lastBuildDate>
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    <title>Monica</title>
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  <guid isPermaLink='true'>https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2020833.html</guid>
  <pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:32:46 GMT</pubDate>
  <title>small payments are still hard</title>
  <link>https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2017/12/10/patreon.html</link>
  <description>&lt;p&gt;If you use Patreon, a site that connects creators (writers, artists, musicians, cartoonists, anybody) with people who&apos;d like to support their work, then you probably already know that they&apos;re about to start charging the patrons (funders) for the credit-card transaction fees.  (So you signed up to pay somebody, say, $1/month, and you&apos;ll now be charged $1.38.)  What you might not have noticed is that they&apos;re charging a little &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; than what the credit-card companies charge them, &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; they&apos;re charging for &lt;em&gt;each individual transaction&lt;/em&gt; even though they charge your card once for all the creators you support each month.  Uh huh.  &lt;span style=&apos;white-space: nowrap;&apos;&gt;&lt;a href=&apos;https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/profile&apos;&gt;&lt;img src=&apos;https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png&apos; alt=&apos;[personal profile] &apos; width=&apos;17&apos; height=&apos;17&apos; style=&apos;vertical-align: text-bottom; border: 0; padding-right: 1px;&apos; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&apos;https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/&apos;&gt;&lt;b&gt;siderea&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt; did some &lt;a href=&quot;https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1371510.html&quot;&gt;money math&lt;/a&gt; on their current practices.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One of the complications in trying to do online financial match-making, whether that&apos;s Patreon or PayPal or others, is that actually &lt;em&gt;holding&lt;/em&gt; money is messy, legally speaking.  So creators who have income and support other creators don&apos;t get to pay from their income (which is just bookkeeping); each transaction has to start with a credit card and end with a deposit.  Or so it sounds.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Back in 1995 when the web was still young, I went to work for a micro-payment research project at CMU, NetBill.  The idea was that consumers used a credit card to load some small amount, like $20, into a NetBill wallet, and merchants could sell digital goods for a nickle or a dime or $1/month or however they wanted to structure things.  There was a secure protocol with escrow so nobody got screwed, and nobody was paying transaction fees on ten-cent sales.  Since this was a university research project it was never set loose in the wild, so nobody ever had to decide what NetBill&apos;s fees would be.  What made me think back to that now is that I have no idea how the financial regulatory stuff was supposed to work; we &lt;em&gt;were&lt;/em&gt; holding money, after all.  What I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; know is that the project had Visa and a major bank on-board from the start to make sure it would be legal.  Now I wonder how they planned to do that.  I assume the rules have changed since then anyway, but I now realize that this was a part of the business model that I had no real insight into.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(I joined the project in part because it sounded interesting and in part because it sounded like something that could launch a start-up and &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; sounded interesting.  Instead, two years after I joined, CyberCash licensed the technology and that was the end of that.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Making small payments was hard then and it hasn&apos;t gotten much easier since.  If you want to publish through Amazon Kindle or iTunes you can still make some income that way (and of course the platform takes a large cut), but &lt;em&gt;self-publishing&lt;/em&gt; for small amounts is still hard.  And &lt;em&gt;supporting&lt;/em&gt; people without going through the &quot;make a sellable thing on Amazon or iTunes&quot; is even harder.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Edited to add:&lt;/strong&gt; Some donation-processing systems &lt;em&gt;give donors the option&lt;/em&gt; to pay the transaction fees.  For example, Jewcer, the site we used to raise funds for &quot;Days of Awe - Mi Yodeya&quot; a couple years ago, was like that, and most donors tacked on the fees.  My congregation asks members to kick in the fees when we make credit-card payments and, again, it&apos;s optional.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don&apos;t -- depends on what the payment is for.  But the key is that it&apos;s &lt;em&gt;optional&lt;/em&gt;.  If Patreon had offered patrons the choice instead of imposing the change, this might have gone over better -- but they couldn&apos;t do that, because they&apos;re using this to &lt;em&gt;overcharge&lt;/em&gt; for those fees so people who know that won&apos;t go along with it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;https://www.dreamwidth.org/tools/commentcount?user=cellio&amp;ditemid=2020833&quot; width=&quot;30&quot; height=&quot;12&quot; alt=&quot;comment count unavailable&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align: middle;&quot;/&gt; comments</description>
  <comments>https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2017/12/10/patreon.html</comments>
  <category>cmu</category>
  <category>money</category>
  <category>internet</category>
  <lj:security>public</lj:security>
  <lj:reply-count>5</lj:reply-count>
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